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Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That is also true in my life. Therapy saved my life too, but before I began seeing a professional therapist, the Beatles were my therapy, and listening to their music literally saved my life when I was a teenager and young adult. Listening to their music provided me with a comforting escape from the living hell I was trapped in growing up in a Christian home, and their music quickly became a refuge for me. On the other hand, being a devout Christian who prayed several times a day for years, read the Bible every day and read it cover to cover several times, and faithfully attended church and Sunday school was a complete and total waste of my time and energy. I can honestly say that I wasted thirty years of my life (and a few years before that) believing in God. As a child and teenager, I'd pray to him every day, asking and pleading with him to protect me from being abused and bullied, but I suffered severe abuse and mistreatment at home for thirteen and a half years and perpetual bullying and harassment in school for twelve years. However, after many years of diligent and sincere prayer, I realized that praying to God was a waste of my time and energy. I finally realized that I was on my own and that it was my responsibility to save and care for myself. I learned that I can stand on my own and take care of myself without relying on God or any other deities to assist me when I needed guidance, heal me when I was sick, or protect and save me from harm.

I stopped believing in God after I was finally honest with myself and accepted the painful truth that my faith in a loving, merciful God wasn't compatible with the reality that I had suffered abuse while I was growing up, and I've had to deal with the traumatic emotional effects of that abuse ever since. I believed in God when I was growing up because that's what I was indoctrinated to believe, despite being abused by my adoptive mother, who's a Christian. My adopted father and my adopted extended family, who are also Christians, always looked the other way. And in spite of being perpetually abused and bullied, I became a Christian myself when I was seventeen and continued to be one for thirty years. To be honest, being a Christian was an absolutely miserable experience for me. There was no peace and joy in my heart or life, as was promised in the Bible to those who believed in and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior.

Despite my genuine faith in God and sincere devotion to him, I was an empty shell, going through the motions. Long story short, I no longer believe in God, and I've renounced my Christian faith. I chose to share my story of being abused as a child (read it here) in the hopes that my story will help other survivors of childhood abuse, and my story of childhood abuse is intertwined with my decision to renounce my faith (read it here). I share my story of leaving Christianity in the hopes that it might inspire others who are thinking of doing the same, or perhaps inspire people who have already left and need reassurance. I can honestly say that letting go of my belief and faith in God is the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being. My only regret is that I should have done this years ago. I won't say much more because I don't want to derail the thread, but believing in and trusting the so-called loving and merciful God of the Bible was a terrible mistake on my part. I can see that now as I reflect back on my life. It took me years to realize and accept that there is no God who will come to my rescue and that if I wanted to survive in this life, I had to save myself by caring for myself and protecting myself from being abused and bullied. I began standing up for myself shortly after turning eighteen, when I confronted my two abusers head-on, and I have continued to do so ever since. I saved myself. God had nothing to do with it.

Finally, I believe it is critical to learn to stand on your own and care for yourself without relying on religious beliefs or a deity to heal you or save you from harm. In my opinion, the sooner people learn this, the better their mental health and emotional well-being will be, as will their lives once they learn to care for themselves. It proved true for me, so I believe that it is possible for others once they are free of the religious indoctrination they have been subjected to during their lives. As far as I'm concerned, I don't need to believe in any gods in order to live a moral life and make the right choices. I've proven to myself that I can stand on my own without genuinely believing in the biblical God or in any other deities. If the biblical God actually exists, then I certainly don't want or need him in my life.
Thank you for sharing that. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. And I'm happy to hear about your journey out of it. I have always loved, loved, loved the Beatles and I totally get it. Their songs have brought me great comfort many times.

Unfortunately, my dad went through something similar to your experience and he never managed to get out of it, thanks to my uncle and his religious influence. My dad went to his grave thinking he was a terrible person who was going to rot in hell away from the rest of his family. And it kills me inside to think that's what he thought about himself. Because he was a kind, loving, sweet person all his life, who went out of his way to help people. Hell, he saved a guy from a burning car wreck with no regard for his own life. His horrible, awful sin was being an alcoholic and becoming addicted to drugs after being prescribed copious amounts of opioids after being in a car accident. And for that, he deserved to rot in hell? Nah. This religious stuff is toxic to one's psychological well-being.

I'm so happy that you are thriving now. All the best to you. :)
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
What I find fascinating here is that human beings, being finite, and very limited creatures are compelled to determine what can't be without any proof either way. No logical proof, no scientific proof, no proof what so ever. This to me is testament to being like a fish in a bowl, bound to our own biases of what reality must be even though the one thing humans have shown definitively is that they only know a fraction of that reality.
This is why in logic and debate the default to any claim or proposition is that it is false/untrue. The truth of the claim follows the evidence. Weak evidence (if there is any) is not sufficient to lead a rational mind to a positive conclusion. The more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence must be. Relogious claims seldom have any evidence, and this is why believers often fall back on faith as a reason to believe. Not evidence and reason, but faith. So without any evidence one way or another the logical position is not believing. Of course the religious feel pressure to adopt the norms they are exposed to, and will believe despite a lack of evidence, and even against contrary evidence. That is how social pressure works, it's often coersive.


Another fascinating thing to me....millions of people from all walks of life experience strange things which they cannot explain with current knowledge of how things should work regardless of the level of education, occupation, religion, age, or sex and that experience often leads them to ridicule, deterioration of health, loss of friends, job, or even their life, and yet they are unwavering in their insistence on the truth of their experience. And millions more dismiss that experience by insisting on pigeonholing that experience into explanations they feel most comfortable with, without any proof.
That to me is evidence of the inherent flaw of the human hubris of thinking we know what must be, can be, and absolutely is without question.
I don't think its an insistence on seeing "them" whatever "them" is. I think to these people its more of an insistence on recognizing the legitimacy of their unique experiences.
Unfortunately - I think its unfortunate - we cannot legitimize unique experiences until we have them ourselves. And only then the experience we have. In the mean while, in the absence of proof we shouldn't outright dismiss the experience others say they have had simply because we disagree with its possibility. That's not to say that we have to agree with the experiencers interpretation of that experience but then again discussion of those possibilities without bias should make for wonderful communion between common beings on the reality they find themselves a part of.
Would it surprize you to learn that ignorance leads to bad assumptions and beliefs? Would it surprize you to learn that society can teach people to believe in false ideas? It is up to the individual to prepare themselves to be rational and educated members of a society, and if they are conditioned to be ignorant and believe in false ideas then they are not in a position to make claims of truth and not face a high level of criticism by rational thinkers. Religious believers show us that they believe all sorts of differing religious experiences, and none of it can be said to be due to oibjective yet mysterious forces. Studies reveal that theists will have religious experiences that mimic those around them. For example pentecostals speak in tongues as a "spiitual experience", yet no other Christian sect does. The most likely explantion is learned behavior. The same goes with how some Christian sects have "experiences" with the Holy Spirit yet others don't. Many ex-hristians report how they tried to have these exveriences objectively, that is they did everything other believers did, but there was no exeprience. What these people didn't do was create an experience themselves, they actually exvected a supernatural force to engage with them and meet them half way. We see in the Ashe behavioral experiments how people will feel strong pressure to conform to group norms and give false answers just to avoid those negative feelings of being an outsider. They trust the group over their own judgment.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Why is it naive to think that thousands (where did you get this figure from anyway?) of people are delusional?
In a population of 8 billion a few thousand is a tiny percentage, I feel pretty sure a much larger percentage of people than that deal with common mental health issues.
In my opinion.

I believe a demon can be a mental health problem. This year I am under attack by the devil who is flashing images at me that seem so real that they frighten me. I say the devil because I am not able to detect a demon. Although the flashing of it tends to be distressing it only lasts for a few seconds and I can handle a few seconds of fright. At least he isn't flashing anything grotesque which is what the demon I had was doing in the past.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
From the perspective of belief in demons I see evidence of demons but the evidence I see is what others say is not evidence for demons at all, and they are right, but for me it is still evidence for demons.

I believe it is like a disbelief in Hell. A person would much prefer it did not exist and the same is true for demonic attacks. It is much more comforting to think of it as a mental disease.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Thank you for sharing that. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. And I'm happy to hear about your journey out of it. I have always loved, loved, loved the Beatles and I totally get it. Their songs have brought me great comfort many times.

Unfortunately, my dad went through something similar to your experience and he never managed to get out of it, thanks to my uncle and his religious influence. My dad went to his grave thinking he was a terrible person who was going to rot in hell away from the rest of his family. And it kills me inside to think that's what he thought about himself. Because he was a kind, loving, sweet person all his life, who went out of his way to help people. Hell, he saved a guy from a burning car wreck with no regard for his own life. His horrible, awful sin was being an alcoholic and becoming addicted to drugs after being prescribed copious amounts of opioids after being in a car accident. And for that, he deserved to rot in hell? Nah. This religious stuff is toxic to one's psychological well-being.

I'm so happy that you are thriving now. All the best to you. :)

I remember you telling me about what happened to your father, and I'm deeply saddened to hear about what happened to him. I sympathize with your father, and it troubles me to hear his story and other stories similar to his and mine. I've had Christians tell me that God didn't answer my prayers for protection while I was growing up in an abusive home because I didn't have enough faith in God for him to save me or because I had unconfessed sins in my life. Keep in mind that as a young child, I cried out to God, pleading with him to save me from my adoptive mother and older brother's abuse and stop them from beating up on me. And years ago, I counseled with my pastor at the time, and after he had listened to me tell him about my life growing up in an abusive home, he told me that I'm a cursed soul. He said that it was obvious to him that God hated me and was punishing me for the sins of my biological parents, and apparently one of their gravest sins was having an affair, and I'm the result of that affair. I truly believed him because generational sins are biblical. It's written in the Bible that God punishes generations of families for the sins of their ancestors. He also told me that there was nothing I could do to change God's mind about me. Of course, I believed every word he said because I knew what the Bible taught about God hating Esau and how God cursed Cain. As a result, I was certain that I had received a curse from God and that he detested me. I'd like to reiterate that being a Christian was detrimental to my mental, emotional, and physical health. To be honest, renunciating my Christian faith was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
I believe a demon can be a mental health problem. This year I am under attack by the devil who is flashing images at me that seem so real that they frighten me. I say the devil because I am not able to detect a demon. Although the flashing of it tends to be distressing it only lasts for a few seconds and I can handle a few seconds of fright. At least he isn't flashing anything grotesque which is what the demon I had was doing in the past.
The dilemma for a therapist treating a condition that is like yours is how a patient will blame an outside force, like a demon, and this is used as an excuse for the patient to avoid accountability. A therapist would work towards you realizing that it’s your beliefs and assumptions that lead you to the behavior that you claim is caused by a demon. In one approach the therapist might have the patient realize THEY are the demon against their better self. Why a person would sabotage their own wellbeing is the goal. Once a patient understands the sabotage is a decision they will be encouraged to find self-esteem and agency to make healthier decisions.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Um except for all the ones that find help in religion. You know, those billions?
Are they actually finding help or just following the crowd? In a way conforming to the social norms DOES prevent the uneasy feeling of being an outsider. That is why most in any given society will share similar beliefs, to one degree or another.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Are they actually finding help or just following the crowd? In a way conforming to the social norms DOES prevent the uneasy feeling of being an outsider. That is why most in any given society will share similar beliefs, to one degree or another.
When one actually knows dozens, maybe hundreds of people that find help in their religion you really don't have any room for doubt.

I happen to be in a situation right now where literally hundreds of people are praying for me... I don't even want to think of the despair my life would be without my faith.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The dilemma for a therapist treating a condition that is like yours is how a patient will blame an outside force, like a demon, and this is used as an excuse for the patient to avoid accountability. A therapist would work towards you realizing that it’s your beliefs and assumptions that lead you to the behavior that you claim is caused by a demon. In one approach the therapist might have the patient realize THEY are the demon against their better self. Why a person would sabotage their own wellbeing is the goal. Once a patient understands the sabotage is a decision they will be encouraged to find self-esteem and agency to make healthier decisions.

Are you a therapist?

Let's avoid psychoanalyzing people we don't know.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
When one actually knows dozens, maybe hundreds of people that find help in their religion you really don't have any room for doubt.

I happen to be in a situation right now where literally hundreds of people are praying for me... I don't even want to think of the despair my life would be without my faith.
I'm sorry you are having a tough time. Some do find solace in using religion as a means to cope.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I believe it is like a disbelief in Hell. A person would much prefer it did not exist and the same is true for demonic attacks. It is much more comforting to think of it as a mental disease.

It can be a mental disease of course.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yes, you did. You said people experiencing interaction with spirits, demons, etc., were “simply mistaken.”

That’s a polite way of denying their claims.
And why would rational thinkers accept fantastic claims that lack any sort of clear evidence? The logical default for any claim is to reject it until it is shown to be true or likley true. Those who claim spirits and demons fail to meet any burden of proof. They have ample opportunity, but never present any compelling evidence.
 
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