Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[Father Heathen]

Spooky!

 

[nPeace]

Well, I would first question whether or not the Bible actual "reveals knowledge" about demons or anything else for that matter.

I think that's a good start. Is there any basis for considering the Bible?

As I said, I don't know enough about Dark Matter to be able to know what to look for. One thing I do know is that, with scientists, if they don't know something, they're not afraid to admit it.

By the same token, I don't know that demons exist, nor do I know that they don't exist. If someone tells me they know that demons exist, then my first question is "How do you know?"

The OP explains one way.

I'm not saying that I'm not willing to look at the evidence, or even what one would expect as evidence. I'm not necessarily a "Bible student," but I do consider myself a student of history, which is also a history of human societies, human behavior, and how humans generally are. Our main struggle has been to try to adapt and survive under harsh natural conditions. Much of the story of human civilization has been to try to tame nature, both the nature around us and the primal inner nature of humans which might also be the source of our "inner demons," as some might call it. I don't see it as something coming from outside, but something more internal and intrinsic to our nature.

Can you answer this question, then.
Why are some people working to "tame nature, both the nature around us and the primal inner nature of humans which might also be the source of our "inner demons,"", and others are working against that, so that failure seems inevitable?

 

[nPeace]

"An angel is a life form ..."

Is it? What exactly is required for us to determine the presence of "life"? I believe that criteria is mostly going to be physical. Yet Angels have no physical presence. At least not in any way that we would recognize and physical.

Also, an angel is a "form"? An angel is an idea, surely, but a "form"? Consisting of what, exactly? Not of matter, apparently. Maybe consisting of energy? Like lightening is an "energy form"? But we can detect energy forms. Or at least some of them. Not angels, though, apparently.

I think the only way they exist that we can be sure of is as an idea. And it's as an idea that they can "fall" and become demons. Also, it seems to be only as an idea that they can have any measurable effect on us.

Why do you think angels are an idea? Would that be like Dark Matter is an idea?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Actually, if you focussed on US, you would think the demons are not only sleeping, but partial.

1	Venezuela	82.1	17.9
2	Papua New Guinea	80.4	19.6
3	Afghanistan	78.4	21.6
4	Haiti	78.3	21.7
5	South Africa	75.5	24.5
6	Honduras	74.3	25.7
7	Trinidad And Tobago	70.8	29.2
8	Syria	69.1	30.9
9	Guyana	68.8	31.2
10	Jamaica	67.5	32.5
11	Peru	67.5	32.5
12	Somalia	66.7	33.3
13	Brazil	66.1	33.9
14	Nigeria	65.8	34.2
15	Angola	65.8	34.2
16	Namibia	64.6	35.4
17	Cameroon	64.2	35.8
18	Argentina	64.0	36.0
19	Mozambique	63.7	36.3
20	Bangladesh	62.5	37.5
21	El Salvador	62.1	37.9
22	Bolivia	62.0	38.0
23	Puerto Rico	61.7	38.3
24	Us Virgin Islands	61.2	38.8
25	Dominican Republic	61.1	38.9
26	Colombia	60.8	39.2
27	Ecuador	60.7	39.3
28	Zimbabwe	60.6	39.4
29	Libya	60.4	39.6
30	Bahamas	60.3	39.7
31	Guatemala	60.1	39.9
32	Chile	58.7	41.3
33	Ivory Coast	57.5	42.5
34	Kenya	56.8	43.2
35	Fiji	56.7	43.3
36	Uganda	55.9	44.1
37	Maldives	55.2	44.8
38	France	54.6	45.4
39	Tanzania	54.4	45.6
40	Mexico	54.1	45.9
41	Kyrgyzstan	53.9	46.1
42	Costa Rica	53.7	46.3
43	Mongolia	53.5	46.5
44	Cambodia	53.0	47.0
45	Botswana	52.6	47.4
46	Belize	52.3	47.7
47	Uruguay	51.9	48.1
48	Malaysia	51.6	48.4
49	Belarus	51.4	48.6
50	Algeria	51.4	48.6
51	Ethiopia	51.4	48.6
52	North Korea	50.7	49.3
53	Paraguay	50.6	49.4
54	Nicaragua	50.2	49.8
55	Myanmar	50.0	50.0
56	Iran	49.8	50.2
57	United States	49.2	50.8

Worldwide, the increasing crime is a problem.
Some lands had never experienced crime, other than "petty" theft, but no more.
However, the seesaw motion does not give us the real picture.
Go to this website, and scrub through the interactive graph, from 1990 to 2021.
It's possible to find data, for earlier years.

The world crime rate increased by 0.74% from 2019 to 20201. According to the Global Crime Index 2022, crime rates continue to rise worldwide, with no signs of slowing down2. In fact, the number of people victimized by crimes has doubled.


When I was a boy, we used to leave our door opened.
We heard our parents relate how they went away and left their houses unlocked... even at night.

Now, people have double locks and chains on their doors, iron bars, on doors and windows, as if they are in prison.
Persons even lament on how church buildings that once remained opened are now usually closed, and to gain access one needs to have a key, or request entry.
You think this is due to population growth.

From all I have seen, if you are focused on demons, there isn't any evidence for them that can't be explained as human action or natural events. Unless you have something else to add, this thread is likely to go the same direction as the last thread on the evidence of demons.

 

[Alien826]

If you read the OP, you would note...

• First, we must understand what a demon is.
• The Bible reveals knowledge about demons. It tells us, they are in opposition to God, and seeking to lead mankind in opposition to God.
• So, it's a matter of knowing what to look for. If you aren't a scientist with knowledge of what to look for, you would never consider any notion of Dark Matter.
• Likewise, if you are not a Bible student, and don't know what to look for, you would never give thought to the presence or influence of demons.

So, the question is, are you looking for what is expected, as evidence, or have you decided to just say, I don't believe?
If I said, I do not believe in any matter that is not what I presently accept, then I will not accept any notion of Dark Matter.
It means, I would not look for what is expected as evidence for such matter.

Are you saying you are not willing to look at what would be expected as evidence for demons?

I agree in one sense. Are you familiar with the saying "to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail"? In other words, if you are trying to explain human behavior and believe what the Bible says about demons, then that's an explanation you will favor. On the other hand, those that are either unfamiliar with that part of the Bible or don't believe it is accurate will not include demons in their explanations.

So, there is something that comes before deciding whether demons cause crime (or whatever bad human behavior), and that is deciding if demons actually exist, and that involves deciding if the Bible account is accurate.

Your analogy of Dark Matter (being something that is inferred from indirect observations) is interesting, but doesn't go further than that observation. It doesn't follow that because Dark matter is not detectable then other such things exist. Like demons.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Dark matter is the name that scientists use to indicate something unknown that results in a divergence from calculated results regarding the behavior of galaxies. It is a placeholder.

Trying to equate that to demons and conjure them to life with that isn't working. That calculation isn't adding up either.

 

[nPeace]

From the OP...
Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

From the OP...
Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity.

And despite what you claim, you aren't showing anyone this evidence and explaining how it is evidence for demons and nothing else.

We've been here before.

 

[viole]

never read that Kryptonite did that.
If I did, and it was presented as more than fiction, I would consider examining what was presented as evidence of its reality.
Would you?

You make the unsubstantiated claim that your Gospel is not fiction. Or do you consider fiction only what is presented as such? If you do, you have a pretty low bar for what constitutes evidence. Probably, ants would be able to jump over it.

What is evidence, so that I can see what evidence you have in mind?

Show me a demon. Ideally, a demon whose evidence does not rely on other claims that have no evidence themselves. Like the claims in your Bible.

So, what can you show us?

Ciao

- viole

 

[nPeace]

I agree in one sense. Are you familiar with the saying "to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail"? In other words, if you are trying to explain human behavior and believe what the Bible says about demons, then that's an explanation you will favor. On the other hand, those that are either unfamiliar with that part of the Bible or don't believe it is accurate will not include demons in their explanations.

Thank you.
You do show yourself reasonable... most times.

So, there is something that comes before deciding whether demons cause crime (or whatever bad human behavior), and that is deciding if demons actually exist, and that involves deciding if the Bible account is accurate.

Thank you.
You are good at listening, and reasoning on what you hear. Strike Two.

Your analogy of Dark Matter (being something that is inferred from indirect observations) is interesting, but doesn't go further than that observation. It doesn't follow that because Dark matter is not detectable then other such things exist. Like demons.

Aw. You missed. Nice ball though.
It is not saying "that because Dark matter is not detectable then other such things exist. Like demons"
The OP is saying what you acknowledged in your first ball. We don't learn about demons from scientists.
If you got that, then go back to the mark, and let's see if your next pitch is better.

Remember, there are some who say Dark Matter does not exist. Some are scientists.
Go ahead. Pitch.

 

[nPeace]

You make the unsubstantiated claim that your Gospel is not fiction. Or do you consider fiction only what is presented as such? If you do, you have a pretty low bar for what constitutes evidence. Probably, ants would be able to jump over it.


Show me a demon. Ideally, a demon whose evidence does not rely on other claims that have no evidence themselves. Like the claims in your Bible.

So, what can you show us?

Ciao

- viole

Seems you didn't get the OP. I hope you did go through it.

 

[viole]

Seems you didn't get the OP. I hope you did go through it.

You lose.

Next one?

Ciao

- viole

 

[nPeace]

You lose.

Next?

Ciao

- viole

Bye Bye. Try again.

 

[viole]

Bye Bye. Try again.

You leave?
Good decision.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Stevicus]

I think that's a good start. Is there any basis for considering the Bible?

I take it into consideration, but I don't take it as hard knowledge or definite fact.

The OP explains one way.


Can you answer this question, then.
Why are some people working to "tame nature, both the nature around us and the primal inner nature of humans which might also be the source of our "inner demons,"", and others are working against that, so that failure seems inevitable?

If you're asking why some people act in lawless or other evil ways, then the answer may be complicated and varied on a case-by-case basis. Some of it may be due to a traumatic or abusive upbringing. It may also be due to physical damage to the brain itself. Some of it could be driven by duress and deprivation. There's a lot of human misery out there, and people can often respond in unpredictable and lawless ways - even if it just spreads more misery.

I suppose if there are any possible "demons" at work, then it seems to work through the volatility of human emotions and vulnerability and fragility of the human psyche.

I guess if we want to exorcise our demons, then we have to find a way to get rid of or subordinate our emotions. We should become more like Vulcans and eschew all emotions. If we base our decisions on logic and rationality, then we might see more favorable outcomes.

 

[nPeace]

You leave?
Good decision.

Ciao

- viole

I'm not going anywhere. You?

 

[viole]

I'm not going anywhere. You?

Nope. Still here.

So, since your "Bye-bye" was a waste of typing, apparently, what evidence can you present to me about demons?

Ciao

- viole

 

[nPeace]

I take it into consideration, but I don't take it as hard knowledge or definite fact.

For those who do, what's your objection?

If you're asking why some people act in lawless or other evil ways, then the answer may be complicated and varied on a case-by-case basis. Some of it may be due to a traumatic or abusive upbringing. It may also be due to physical damage to the brain itself. Some of it could be driven by duress and deprivation. There's a lot of human misery out there, and people can often respond in unpredictable and lawless ways - even if it just spreads more misery.

Isn't traumatic or abusive upbringing due to actions in opposition to God?
Why would that not indicate demonic influence?

I suppose if there are any possible "demons" at work, then it seems to work through the volatility of human emotions and vulnerability and fragility of the human psyche.

I guess if we want to exorcise our demons, then we have to find a way to get rid of or subordinate our emotions. We should become more like Vulcans and eschew all emotions. If we base our decisions on logic and rationality, then we might see more favorable outcomes.

Why is that not working out?

 

[nPeace]

Nope. Still here.

So, since your "Bye-bye" was a waste of typing, apparently, what evidence can you present to me about demons?

Ciao

- viole

Just two words. Didn't even take three second to type.
On the other hand, the OP took minutes, and if you read it, your question is a waste of typing.

 

[viole]

Just two word. Didn't even take three second to type.
On the other hand, the OP took minutes, and if you read it, your question is a waste of typing.

Just show us your evidence of demons. Where is it? All I see is some useless blah blah, that can be applied to basically everything.

Just talking about them does not make them real, obviously.Especially when predicated on Scriptures, that has no evidence to be true, either.

So, what have you got that we can submit to rational analysis?

Ciao

- viole