Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[nPeace]

More like honor is an idea. An idea that represents phenomena that we perceive and value but cannot explicitly objectify.

No. Demons are not an idea.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sounds like an opinion to me. What do you think? Is it an opinion?


Scientific study? Dude... When will you guys get it through your skulls. Science don't do God and Demons. Oh dear me.

You can use science to test falsifiable hypotheses with evidence. Since there is no evidence for demons, there is nothing to test. You haven't provided any and given that you have been here nearly five years, you've had more than enough time to do it.

Like Dark Matter, what is the indirect evidence of demons? According to the tenor of your posts, presenting that should be easy peasey.

 

[lukethethird]

People ask for evidence of demons.
Is there any evidence? Yes, there is.

First, we must understand what a demon is.
What are demons?

In the Bible, a demon is defined as an angel of God, that is debased. That is, a rebel angel.
An angel, is a higher form of life - a spirit being.
Thus, an angel is a life form, far more intelligent, and far more powerful than anything, known to man.

In another thread, I tried to help an individual grasp that. Was I successful?
Reasonableness is required. Let's see how many are.
Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

Simply put... no puny instrument of man can detect a spirit being.
Does that mean, demons do not exist? No more than scientists believe Dark Matter, and Dark Energy are out there.
There are two ways to detect dark matter:

1. Indirect detection: Scientists use indirect methods to detect dark matter. For example, they look for the effects of dark matter on visible matter, such as the gravitational pull of dark matter on stars and galaxies. Another indirect method is to look for gamma rays, the highest energy form of light, which are released when two dark matter particles collide.
2. Direct detection: Scientists are also trying to detect dark matter directly. They are looking for the rare occasions when a dark matter particle collides with an atom in a detector on Earth.

Of course, the scientists are not seeing Dark Matter, but looking for what effects indicate the presence of Dark Matter.
The do so, based on their current understanding of how matter would, or should interact... according to their best educated guess.

The same is true of demons, and detecting their presence.
The Bible reveals knowledge about demons. It tells us, they are in opposition to God, and seeking to lead mankind in opposition to God.
Are they having success? What evidence do we have of their activity?

Recently, in the News... in almost every region, talk has been around the level of increased crime.
Persons say this is due to a range of factors, such as, COVID public health measures such as travel restrictions, school closures, lockdowns, and curfews, COVID sickness and death itself, and less aggressive police practices in response to Black Lives Matter and other organized criticisms of police use of force.

These factors are not applicable in many lands where increasing crime is a problem.
Also, they do not explain the mentality of individuals to commit evil acts on their fellowman.
Appart from this, the world has become increasingly chaotic over the last century.

Bible students recognize the increased lawlessness, and problems as evidence of demonic interference. These are signs they were instructed to expect, and look for.
The Bible says, at Revelation 12.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.​

12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”​

(Revelation 12:7-12)

So, it's a matter of knowing what to look for. If you aren't a scientist with knowledge of what to look for, you would never consider any notion of Dark Matter.
Likewise, if you are not a Bible student, and don't know what to look for, you would never give thought to the presence or influence of demons.

Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity.

Scientists don't study demons or gods, but what they do study is people that believe in demons and gods. See the behavioural sciences and psychology.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No. Demons are not an idea.

Without evidence that they exist, that is all that demons are. Unless you provide the support that they exist and how to determine their actions from natural phenomena.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

This is contradictory nonsense in my view.

Dark matter is not able to be detected directly, but we believe in it because because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly.

You claim that demons can effect matter, yet also say they are unable to be physically detected, yet if they effect physical matter then they can be detected just not directly. So which is it?

If you are going to run with *like dark matter we can infer their presence from the effect they have on things we can observe*, then you have to explain why demons are a better explanation than other things we can directly observe.

For example if a glass moves off the table but we observe a cat pushing it then you can't explain it using demons because there is a natural explanation we can observe which displaces the immaterial explanation.

And this is where I believe the demon idea runs into serious trouble, because we can observe the effect that brain structure, chemistry, upbringing, environment etc have on behaviour, therefore we have natural drivers of behaviour which displace undetectable demons as the likely explanation for behaviour just like with the simpler example I gave of the cat being the driver of the glass flying off the table.

Kudos for starting a new thread so new readers aren't aware that this is P.R.A.T.T that was refuted in the prior thread in my view.

Those claiming the existence of demons and the recognition of the actions of demons must have some way to make the determination. I can't imagine why communicating those means of determination are so difficult to belabor this through successive threads with no evidence forthcoming.

What a person believes is irrelevant here, since the thread is about the evidence for demons that is so persuasive that even those that do not believe will come to acknowledge the existence of demons. Yet...crickets when pressed to provide that evidence.

 

[nPeace]

This is contradictory nonsense in my view.

Dear me. There's never a dull moment on RF.

Dark matter is not able to be detected directly, but we believe in it because because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly.

Where did you read that? Oh. You just wrote it.

Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly.
Scientists are also trying to detect dark matter directly.

They wrote it...
However, I see a difference between observe directly, and detect directly.
Observe directly, means see it directly. while detect directly, means detect it's presence directly, as in see its actual interaction.
That's my understanding.

You claim that demons can effect matter, yet also say they are unable to be physically detected, yet if they effect physical matter then they can be detected just not directly. So which is it?

What did I just read.

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design

• no puny instrument of man can detect a spirit being
• The same is true of demons, and detecting their presence.

No. I didn't claim that.
You seem to be confusing what I said, with what you don't understand.

If you are going to run with *like dark matter we can infer their presence from the effect they have on things we can observe*, then you have to explain why demons are a better explanation than other things we can directly observe.

Things such as?

For example if a glass moves off the table but we observe a cat pushing it then you can't explain it using demons because there is a natural explanation we can observe which displaces the immaterial explanation.

That's correct.

And this is where I believe the demon idea runs into serious trouble, because we can observe the effect that brain structure, chemistry, upbringing, environment etc have on behaviour, therefore we have natural drivers of behaviour which displace undetectable demons as the likely explanation for behaviour just like with the simpler example I gave of the cat being the driver of the glass flying off the table.

What evidence do you have that brain structure, chemistry, upbringing, environment etc., affect behavior with no other influence?

Kudos for starting a new thread so new readers aren't aware that this is P.R.A.T.T that was refuted in the prior thread in my view.

Which thread is that?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Dear me. There's never a dull moment on RF.


Where did you read that? Oh. You just wrote it.

Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly.
Scientists are also trying to detect dark matter directly.

They wrote it...
However, I see a difference between observe directly, and detect directly.
Observe directly, means see it directly. while detect directly, means detect it's presence directly, as in see its actual interaction.
That's my understanding.



What did I just read.

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design

• no puny instrument of man can detect a spirit being
• The same is true of demons, and detecting their presence.

No. I didn't claim that.
You seem to be confusing what I said, with what you don't understand.


Things such as?


That's correct.


What evidence do you have that brain structure, chemistry, upbringing, environment etc., affect behavior with no other influence?


Which thread is that?

You first. Your evidence please. How do you know that a person is possessed by a demon and not suffering from some neurological or physiological condition? Go ahead. Don't hold back.

 

[nPeace]

Kudos for starting a new thread so new readers aren't aware that this is P.R.A.T.T that was refuted in the prior thread in my view.

I just did a search, and found this.
I honestly had no idea that thread existed, but it has so many posts, I would not have commented on it.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I just did a search, and found this.
I honestly had no idea that thread existed, but it has so many posts, I would not have commented on it.

You didn't know about that thread? Really? You should check out post 171 of that thread. It seems very familiar.

 

[nPeace]

If there are any crickets out there chirping "no evidence", I refer you to this post.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

If there are any crickets out there chirping "no evidence", I refer you to this post.

Is that a link to a thread you had no idea about? What is it supposed to tell us anyway?

It seems like a diversion to avoid answering the questions that you seem to have avoided answering on that thread as well.

Where is this evidence that you claim will convince us all that demons exist and we will know how to tell the action of demons from ordinary phenomena?

 

[nPeace]

@danieldemol I don't remember every thread I post, in I hope you can reasonably understand that.

 

[nPeace]

Scientists don't study demons or gods,

Woah. This the same guy who couldn't understand that when I told him. Ho Ho. The funny things in life.

but what they do study is people that believe in demons and gods. See the behavioural sciences and psychology.

I'm wondering how that is useful.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

If there are any crickets out there chirping "no evidence", I refer you to this post.

I assume you mean me when you ask about crickets and you linked to a post I made. That would be evidence that you are reading my posts or at least skimming them enough to know that I haven't made any claims about the existence or non-existence of evidence.

All I have done is ask questions. Where is the evidence you claim exists? Please show it to us. Why are you holding back?

 

[nPeace]

No. I believe in them. Once again, this is something I can not prove.

Would you say your belief is based on evidence, rather than just believing?

 

[Stevicus]

Interesting.


Sounds like a claim.
What traits exactly? What's your evidence?

You're not aware of the history of the human race?

I'm waiting for examples of the traits you are referring to, so that I can answer your question.
I don't think we are talking about the same thing. At least it doesn't seem that way to me.

You're waiting for examples of traits, like the things you would blame demons for? Such as greed, hatred?

What evidence do you have for that?

Wars have been around for thousands of years, at least of what we know. Perhaps even longer.

God didn't create us.
We are the offspring of two people, the Bible says were created by God.
How we are, is from our fore-parents, and the traits they passed on to us.

Yes, that's what it says.

You say probably.
Is that because you are not sure.
Could you post me the data, that says we have less evil today... So we can be sure.

Fewer casualties in wars, for one thing. You can look up the data yourself. We ended legalized slavery, outlawed aggressive warfare, agreed as a world on a document proclaiming human rights - much of it relatively recently. We've never done that before in the entire history of mankind. Wouldn't that be indicative of less evil today than in previous eras?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

@danieldemol I don't remember every thread I post, in I hope you can reasonably understand that.

That's an interesting claim given you posted more than 50 times on that thread about this specific subject and it wasn't but a few months ago too. You didn't present any evidence there either. Just the same logical fallacy about dark matter.

 

[danieldemol]

Dear me. There's never a dull moment on RF.


Where did you read that? Oh. You just wrote it.

False;
'We know that dark matter exists because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly'
Source:

StarChild: Dark Matter

What did I just read.

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design

• no puny instrument of man can detect a spirit being
• The same is true of demons, and detecting their presence.

No. I didn't claim that.
You seem to be confusing what I said, with what you don't understand.

So you claim, but you haven't pointed out how my understanding differs from what you said in my view.

Things such as?

So instead of reading a post in full, you start commenting pre-emptively I see. If you read the full post you would notice that I referred to " the effect that brain structure, chemistry, upbringing, environment etc"

That's correct.


What evidence do you have that brain structure, chemistry, upbringing, environment etc., affect behavior with no other influence?

You are reversing the burden of proof here, bring evidence of influence other than these and I will consider it. One could just has easily asked what evidence do we have that an undetectable pixie-dwarf isn't helping the glass be pushed off the table by the cat and it would be just as silly.

Which thread is that?

Demons, is there any evidence they even exist? You began hitting the like button from post #158 onwards and posted from #171 onwards, presumably you read the threads you interact with.

 

[danieldemol]

@danieldemol I don't remember every thread I post, in I hope you can reasonably understand that.

Selective memory kicking in I suppose, but given the recency of the thread and the almost identical title you gave it an extroadinary lapse of memory nontheless in my view.

 

[lukethethird]

Woah. This the same guy who couldn't understand that when I told him. Ho Ho. The funny things in life.

You are confused.

I'm wondering how that is useful.

The psychology of believing in gods and demons is useful for understanding human behaviour.