Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[Dan From Smithville]

Selective memory kicking in I suppose, but given the recency of the thread and the almost identical title you gave it an extroadinary lapse of memory nontheless in my view.

Have you ever seen the Star Trek episode "A Piece of the Action"? Briefly, the enterprise makes contact with a planet that was previously contacted by the Federation 100 years prior. There was cultural contamination. The first contact group left a book about 20th Century gangsters behind. The people of the planet spent the next 100 years forcing their culture to fit the book so that when the Enterprise arrives it is as if they stepped back into 1920's/30's gangland Chicago.

There is a similar theme in the movie "Galaxy Quest". The alien species the Thermians force their culture to fit the intercepted "Galaxy Quest" episodes of the fictional show the movie is based around.

Certain segments of Christianity seem to be trying to do that with their own interpretations of the Bible. Force the world to fit a particular interpretation that is deemed the one true interpretation rather than apply biblical wisdom to the world as it is.

What was once thought to be demon possession turns out to be mental health issues or some other explicable phenomenon. I'm confident that is why we see a claim of demons in these threads, but no evidence or very poor attempts to equate the possibility of demons as more than belief with something that has more than belief as a basis like "dark matter".

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No. Demons are not an idea.

Whether I or anyone believes in or doesn't believe in demons is irrelevant. The question of this thread and the other thread are about evidence that your actions indicate you think exists. If it does exist, then you would be doing everyone a service by describing that evidence and how demons is the best conclusion from that evidence. It would be a Christian duty in my opinion to show others how to detect the action of demons so that they can be avoided.

I don't think there is anyone that would reject the idea that you have spent a lot of time reading the Bible and can quote it. Do you think that time and effort you have spent is evidence for demons? If so, please explain.

You imply that only believers in Christ can see and know about demons, but that Bible doesn't even say that. Jews, pagans and early Christians are all reported to at least see those possessed if not the demons themselves. Belief in Christ doesn't fit as criteria for demonstrating the existence of demons as you imply.

You have tried more than once to equate the possibility of the existence of demons with a recognized problem in science. I think it is clear that you have failed in that attempt.

So what then is your evidence to show us that demons are more than just an idea to be believed or rejected?

 

[joelr]

People ask for evidence of demons.
Is there any evidence? Yes, there is.

First, we must understand what a demon is.
What are demons?

In the Bible, a demon is defined as an angel of God, that is debased. That is, a rebel angel.
An angel, is a higher form of life - a spirit being.
Thus, an angel is a life form, far more intelligent, and far more powerful than anything, known to man.

In another thread, I tried to help an individual grasp that. Was I successful?
Reasonableness is required. Let's see how many are.
Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

Dark matter is a hypothesis created to answer a gravitational problem that could be answered by a type of matter that does not interact with EM but does interact with gravity.

There was a need for an explanation.
There is NO NEED to use demons as any explanation. Bad things happen, disease, bad weather and so on. They happen at predictable rates and are already explained. Adding on a supernatural agent isn't needed. The only thing it does is give you a conspiracy theory vibe as if you know something others don't.
Demons are only in fiction. Like Orcs.

The same is true of demons, and detecting their presence.
The Bible reveals knowledge about demons. It tells us, they are in opposition to God, and seeking to lead mankind in opposition to God.
Are they having success? What evidence do we have of their activity?

Recently, in the News... in almost every region, talk has been around the level of increased crime.
Persons say this is due to a range of factors, such as, COVID public health measures such as travel restrictions, school closures, lockdowns, and curfews, COVID sickness and death itself, and less aggressive police practices in response to Black Lives Matter and other organized criticisms of police use of force.

That is called a pandemic. During the black death 60 million people died. All of those things you listed happened, but much worse. During the spanish flu 25 million were killed, same things happened. Viruses are real. A new virus enters the ecosystem and a pandemic happens.
We do not need childish fantasy add-ons to actual grown up problems.

WW2 saw a huge rise in world wide crime. Russia invading Ukraine involves many crimes. Any local crime rise has local factors at play, increased poverty, less police. Again, demons are not needed as an explanation. Matter that doesn't interact with EM is already something we have seen, or weakly acting particles, like neutrinos. Demons, never. Except in fiction.

These factors are not applicable in many lands where increasing crime is a problem.
Also, they do not explain the mentality of individuals to commit evil acts on their fellowman.
Appart from this, the world has become increasingly chaotic over the last century.

No, the world has been at constant war from the first city of Sumer to the 1900s. The recent century is the most peaceful the Earth has ever been. So to push your agenda forward you need mis-information. What does that tell you? It's wrong.

Bible students recognize the increased lawlessness, and problems as evidence of demonic interference. These are signs they were instructed to expect, and look for.

The wild West was lawless. The Revolutionary and Civil war were brutal and relentless for human life and rights.
Now things are far far better. You need to make up false narratives to push your end-of -the-world narrative.

The Bible says, at Revelation 12.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.​

12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”​

(Revelation 12:7-12)

So, it's a matter of knowing what to look for. If you aren't a scientist with knowledge of what to look for, you would never consider any notion of Dark Matter.
Likewise, if you are not a Bible student, and don't know what to look for, you would never give thought to the presence or influence of demons.

Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity.

Demons are in all sorts of fiction. Always based on imagination.
Revelation is a Persian myth Jewish thinkers took in and slowly over centuries said "God has given me a revelation"......"We too are having a final war with the devil and will resurrect at the end and live forever in paradise".
Uh, no, it's fiction when Persians thought it up and fiction when Jewish thinkers made it a Jewish story.





Persian Revelations
but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.


Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which
there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).

Mary Boyce
Zoroastrians-Their-Religious-Beliefs-and-Practices


Wow, sounds familiar. Written 1700 BC, read by Jewish people during the occupation 600 BC - 300 BC.

It's all folk tales.

 

[joelr]

Actually, if you focussed on US, you would think the demons are not only sleeping, but partial.

1	Venezuela	82.1	17.9
2	Papua New Guinea	80.4	19.6
3	Afghanistan	78.4	21.6
4	Haiti	78.3	21.7
5	South Africa	75.5	24.5
6	Honduras	74.3	25.7
7	Trinidad And Tobago	70.8	29.2
8	Syria	69.1	30.9
9	Guyana	68.8	31.2
10	Jamaica	67.5	32.5
11	Peru	67.5	32.5
12	Somalia	66.7	33.3
13	Brazil	66.1	33.9
14	Nigeria	65.8	34.2
15	Angola	65.8	34.2
16	Namibia	64.6	35.4
17	Cameroon	64.2	35.8
18	Argentina	64.0	36.0
19	Mozambique	63.7	36.3
20	Bangladesh	62.5	37.5
21	El Salvador	62.1	37.9
22	Bolivia	62.0	38.0
23	Puerto Rico	61.7	38.3
24	Us Virgin Islands	61.2	38.8
25	Dominican Republic	61.1	38.9
26	Colombia	60.8	39.2
27	Ecuador	60.7	39.3
28	Zimbabwe	60.6	39.4
29	Libya	60.4	39.6
30	Bahamas	60.3	39.7
31	Guatemala	60.1	39.9
32	Chile	58.7	41.3
33	Ivory Coast	57.5	42.5
34	Kenya	56.8	43.2
35	Fiji	56.7	43.3
36	Uganda	55.9	44.1
37	Maldives	55.2	44.8
38	France	54.6	45.4
39	Tanzania	54.4	45.6
40	Mexico	54.1	45.9
41	Kyrgyzstan	53.9	46.1
42	Costa Rica	53.7	46.3
43	Mongolia	53.5	46.5
44	Cambodia	53.0	47.0
45	Botswana	52.6	47.4
46	Belize	52.3	47.7
47	Uruguay	51.9	48.1
48	Malaysia	51.6	48.4
49	Belarus	51.4	48.6
50	Algeria	51.4	48.6
51	Ethiopia	51.4	48.6
52	North Korea	50.7	49.3
53	Paraguay	50.6	49.4
54	Nicaragua	50.2	49.8
55	Myanmar	50.0	50.0
56	Iran	49.8	50.2
57	United States	49.2	50.8

Worldwide, the increasing crime is a problem.
Some lands had never experienced crime, other than "petty" theft, but no more.
However, the seesaw motion does not give us the real picture.
Go to this website, and scrub through the interactive graph, from 1990 to 2021.
It's possible to find data, for earlier years.

The world crime rate increased by 0.74% from 2019 to 20201. According to the Global Crime Index 2022, crime rates continue to rise worldwide, with no signs of slowing down2. In fact, the number of people victimized by crimes has doubled.


When I was a boy, we used to leave our door opened.
We heard our parents relate how they went away and left their houses unlocked... even at night.

Now, people have double locks and chains on their doors, iron bars, on doors and windows, as if they are in prison.
Persons even lament on how church buildings that once remained opened are now usually closed, and to gain access one needs to have a key, or request entry.
You think this is due to population growth.

Your stats are off. Murder and rape was higher in the 90s. All crime was higher. In the last 2000 years it would have been off the chart, just massively unreported. Slaves, immigrants, impoverished people, people of an unpopular race in an area, were brutalized, whatever the ruling class felt like doing to them with zero repercussions. Everywhere. Injustices unheard of, children taken, property, beatings. We finally have built a reasonable society and have far less crime than any time in history. Children worked labor with no rules for hour or day limits. Women were taken advantage of in all sorts of ways and you have no idea what you are talking about.



Please read:

"After World War II, crime rates increased in the United States, peaking from the 1970s to the early-1990s. Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since the 1990s, however, contrary to common misconception,[9] crime in the United States has declined steadily, and has significantly declined by the late 1990s and also in the early 2000s. Several theories have been proposed to explain this decline:"

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh no, the demons theory isn't actually supported? We are not headed for the Persian Revelation? Bummer!
Even if crime was increasing, there would be factors, indicators we understand. Adding demons isn't needed. No crime analyst would be like "it's as if some invisible beings are whispering in peoples ear but we cannot see them? Maybe the Christians can help us with this case? Don't they have a book from like 2000 years ago that might explain reality better than science and facts that will help us crack the case?"

"The FBI tracks seven major types of crime, Asher explains on Morning Edition. Property crime — theft, auto theft and burglary — has been falling regularly for the last 20 years. Violent crime — aggravated assault, murder, rape and robbery — increased at least in 2020, but remains lower than it was in the 1990s.

"But even that, when we talk about crime, is not what people think of," Asher says. "What they're really thinking of is murder and gun violence, and murder makes up 0.2% of all big-picture crimes every year. But it's the crime with the most societal harm. It's the thing that people tend to care about the most."

"The number of homicides increased 4.3% nationally in 2021, according to the FBI report, and Asher says it likely decreased by a similar amount so far this year. Nonetheless, it's higher than it was in 2019. In other words: The murder rate is significantly lower than it was in the 1990s — Asher says 30-40% lower — but much higher than it was just three or four years ago."

""Absent that, we get a lot of politicians that are saying a lot of things that frequently are based on anecdote or sort of the vibes of the moment," he says. "And we get, then, a lot of misinformation and poor decisions being made in the name of data-less arguments."

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/27/1131825858/us-crime-data-midterm-elections

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Sounds like an opinion to me. What do you think? Is it an opinion?


Scientific study? Dude... When will you guys get it through your skulls. Science don't do God and Demons. Oh dear me.

And when will you get it through your skull -- if science can't go gods and demons, it's because they do not interact in any way with our world. If they don't interact in any way with our world, then they can have zero effect upon our world. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, for us, they do not exist.

Your very feeble attempt at an analogy to dark matter fails, because dark matter does impact in one way that can be measured -- gravity. That's how we surmise it's there. And even now there is a lab just a few hundred miles from me, over a mile underground called SNOLab in Sudbury, Ontario, that is looking for that gravity signature unaffected by noise from other particles emitted by the sun. So you see, if there is any way at all in which anything can have an effect in our "non-spiritual" world, then science can find a way to detect, it, because effects leave traces.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

Look what you wrote in Post #1. Demons "are not affected by matter" but "can affect matter." The laws of physics makes this impssible. For every action (affect upon matter) there is an equal and opposite reaction (another effect upon matter). In the case of a demon, which according to you cannot be affected by matter, such a reaction is simply impossible -- and therefore the initial action can be of no effect.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I guess if we want to exorcise our demons, then we have to find a way to get rid of or subordinate our emotions. We should become more like Vulcans and eschew all emotions. If we base our decisions on logic and rationality, then we might see more favorable outcomes.

Why is that not working out?

Because we are not Vulcans, we are humans. Now, if human nature is not what you think it ought to be, then you must either take that up with evolution -- or with your god, whichever you think is responsible for it.

 

[PureX]

No. Demons are not an idea.

Of course they are. Whatever else they may be, they are certainly an idea. Which is how we are able to discuss them.

 

[Alien826]

Not following.
I used Dark Matter to show. something can exist and

• be unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter
• affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design
• be shown to exist, based on an understanding of what it is, and how it's expected to behave .

Similar to demons.

I'm not sure what your third bullet point means. But forgive me if skip this and refer you to all the posts that explain why the analogy is not a good one. I'm trying to keep up with conversations I have started, but my life has taken a busy turn lately.

Please explain how my last sentence suffered.

"Sufficed", silly, not "suffered". It means it was enough to make your point, which was "We don't learn about demons from scientists".

It's about numbers?

I was just noting that the majority of scientists favor the dark matter hypothesis. Nothing else implied.

I'm disappointed. You were doing so well.

There you go again.

Seems you can't get the third strike. However, I give you more credit than most here, so explain please, how you reached the conclusion that I am being the player and umpire.

Easy. There are three people involved in your baseball analogy. The Pitcher, that's me making arguments to address what you have previously said. The Batter, that's you responding to what I say. And the Umpire, who decides whether a given pitch was a "ball" or a "strike", in other words decides who "won" the argument. You were making yourself the Umpire as well as the batter when you labelled my arguments "ball" or "strike".

Do you see that by making yourself the Umpire, you are setting yourself up as the authority that determines the "truth"?

Yeah. I need an explanation. I'm not that smart, you see.
Pitch.

I think you present yourself to be exactly as smart as you want us to think you are.

 

[HonestJoe]

Recently, in the News... in almost every region, talk has been around the level of increased crime.

Why would a (perceived) increase in crime today be evidence of demons having existed on Earth ever since they were cast out of heaven? Why wouldn't the negative impacts from demonic activity be relatively static throughout history and all around the world?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Christians demonize the gods that polytheists like myself worship on a routine basis. Our gods are their demons, I guess. It's probably not a good idea to listen to them when wanting to understand our traditions on their own merit, but Christians are certainly free to demonize the gods as they see fit within the context of their own traditions. It makes sense for them to. Monotheism in general is a tenuous thing, given devotion and high regard (aka, worship) of multiple different things tends to come pretty naturally to everybody. Demonization is almost necessary for monotheism to stave off polytheist "backsliding" as they'd view it, along with actively tearing down indigenous and polytheist cultures to suppress their influence as much as possible. Maybe less of a thing in the modern era, but definitely the modus operandi historically and that legacy of control and intolerance carries forward to the present. Alas, this is just one way of telling the story. Disregard as thou wilt.

Since "demon" is largely a monotheist, Christian concept I don't really leverage it in my own religious tradition. There are adversarial gods and spirits, sure, but Paganism generally doesn't expect the universe to be revolving around humans to begin with so the implications are different. Things act in accord with their natures, and if humans get in the way, it is not necessarily an act of malice or intentional sabotage. There are a few outright malevolent gods, but I'm still not sure I would say they are really "demonized" in a polytheist or Pagan context. Infrequently worshiped, sure, but certainly respected for the powerful forces they are. It's interesting to note that many historical Pagan gods coupled maleveolent aspects with benevolent ones, perhaps reflecting the real complexities and paradoxes of the world we inhabit. Ocean, for example - all life was born and bred from tee, but thou also drown and swallow life into murky death.

That, in my opinion, is a very good explanation, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. Since becoming a Wiccan and polytheist, I've realized that demons and the devil are primarily monotheistic Christian concepts, and it's okay if I disregard these beliefs. So, what you've written makes sense to me.

 

[viole]

Typing Exercise?
I have a better idea. 5 words.
What is evidence, so that I can see what evidence you have in mind?
What Evidence Is.

what I have in mind is something that makes your demons more credible than invisible fairies in my garden.

what have you got?

ciao

- viole

 

[nPeace]

You're not aware of the history of the human race?

From Adam and Eve. Yes, of course.
The human traits they developed, were not due to the harsh struggles our ancestors had to endure just to be able to survive.

However, suppose I did agree with you, you don't have any evidence to support the claim, that evil tendencies developed due to the harsh struggles our ancestors had to endure just to be able to survive.
This is an assumption. True?

You're waiting for examples of traits, like the things you would blame demons for? Such as greed, hatred?

Greed and hatred? Thanks.
I know that there are qualities that many people have, and display on a daily basis - Such as those mentioned at Romans 1:29-31; Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:1-5

I know that these same people do not have qualities which are opposite to the above, and those you mentioned - Such as those mentioned at
Galatians 5:22, 23
That text says the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

When I see fruit on a tree, I don't have to ask, if the tree is real.
When people who strive to be know and be close to God, display such qualities, I don't ask if God's spirit is at work. I see it.
When I see people behaving opposite to the spirit of God, I always reflect on 1 John 4:8 - Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. . .

That, is to me, clear evidence of where human traits stem.
The behavior of this world, reflects the characteristics of the one controlling it -
(1 John 5:19) We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

The Bible helps me identify the link.
So, to answer your questions - The Bible does not say God create "these harsh realities", and greed and hatred are the cause of "these harsh realities". Not the result.
The universe is orderly. The Bible says God created it.

Using the word cosmos implies viewing the universe as a complex and orderly system or entity
The philosopher Pythagoras used the term kosmos (Ancient Greek: κόσμος, Latinized kósmos) for the order of the universe. Anaxagoras further introduced the concept of a Cosmic Mind (Nous) ordering all things

It's a very well organized system. That's why the moon can be said to be faithful.
You probably want to know if any "chaos" would be the doings of demons. The Bible says God will not let earth be ruined, so what "chaos" - whether on the earth, or outside of it occurs, the Bible says it's temporary
We do know that man causes ruin on earth though.

Wars have been around for thousands of years, at least of what we know. Perhaps even longer.

There's more evil on the earth without wars.

Fewer casualties in wars, for one thing. You can look up the data yourself.

Since when? World War 1?
I'll check it out and get back to you later.

Why are you focused on wars though, when we are discussing evil... in all its forms?

We ended legalized slavery,

No, you haven't.

Slavery is still legal in 94 countries
Slavery is not a crime in almost half the countries in the world, a study of global laws said on Wednesday

outlawed aggressive warfare,

A New Era of Conflict and Violence
The nature of conflict and violence has transformed substantially since the UN was founded 75 years ago. Conflicts now tend to be less deadly and often waged between domestic groups rather than states. Homicides are becoming more frequent in some parts of the world, while gender-based attacks are increasing globally. The long-term impact on development of inter-personal violence, including violence against children, is also more widely recognized.

Separately, technological advances have raised concerns about lethal autonomous weapons and cyberattacks, the weaponization of bots and drones, and the livestreaming of extremist attacks. There has also been a rise in criminal activity involving data hacks and ransomware, for example. Meanwhile, international cooperation is under strain, diminishing global potential for the prevention and resolution of conflict and violence in all forms.

I don't think you are seeing the bigger picture.

agreed as a world on a document proclaiming human rights - much of it relatively recently.
We've never done that before in the entire history of mankind. Wouldn't that be indicative of less evil today than in previous eras?

I agree that today, quite a lot of agreements have been made. However, let me get back to you later.
I have to jet.

 

[nPeace]

False;
'We know that dark matter exists because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly'
Source:

StarChild: Dark Matter

I don't think you understand what you are saying.
Dark Matter: Is It “Real Stuff” or Gravity Misunderstood?
So far, dark matter has never been observed directly – hence the name. What astronomers observe in the night sky are the consequences of matter that is potentially present: bending of starlight, stars that move faster than expected, and even effects on the motion of entire galaxies. Without a doubt all of these effects are caused by gravity, but the question is: are we truly observing additional gravity, caused by invisible matter, or are the laws of gravity themselves the thing that we haven’t fully understood yet?

Although we cannot see dark matter and we have not yet detected it in a lab, its presence is made known through gravitational effects.

How do we know that dark matter exists?

Dark matter is the name scientists have given to the particles which we believe exist in the universe, but which we cannot directly see!

This Is The Real Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter
Finding the particle we assume is responsible for dark matter has always been a guessing game. We guessed wrong.

There is a difference between seeing or observing something, and seeing and observing the effects of something ... and that something could be something other that what it's thought to be.

So you claim, but you haven't pointed out how my understanding differs from what you said in my view.

I think I did. I think it's evident you don't understand though.

So instead of reading a post in full, you start commenting pre-emptively I see. If you read the full post you would notice that I referred to " the effect that brain structure, chemistry, upbringing, environment etc"

My style. Not yours.

You are reversing the burden of proof here, bring evidence of influence other than these and I will consider it. One could just has easily asked what evidence do we have that an undetectable pixie-dwarf isn't helping the glass be pushed off the table by the cat and it would be just as silly.

I'm using a source I consider reliable.
What reliable source do you have for an undetectable pixie-dwarf?

Demons, is there any evidence they even exist? You began hitting the like button from post #158 onwards and posted from #171 onwards, presumably you read the threads you interact with.

I do. I just don't remember every title, and know I posted there.

Selective memory kicking in I suppose, but given the recency of the thread and the almost identical title you gave it an extroadinary lapse of memory nontheless in my view.

No. Honestly not remembering as though I have a computer chip in my brain, with every thread I post in listed in alphabetical order.
What are you doing? Hopefully not grabbing at straws. Wouldn't that serve only for distraction purposes?

 

[nPeace]

And when will you get it through your skull -- if science can't go gods and demons, it's because they do not interact in any way with our world.

Why would you want persons to get something that is false, through their skull?
So, morality is not real? You really think that science deals with everything?

Scientism is the opinion that science and the scientific method are the best or only way to render truth about the world and reality.

If they don't interact in any way with our world, then they can have zero effect upon our world.

Agreed.
I don't know who said that... but you.

Therefore, for all intents and purposes, for us, they do not exist.

The "therefore" is misplaced, since it follows a false premise - aka a strawman.

Your very feeble attempt at an analogy to dark matter fails, because dark matter does impact in one way that can be measured -- gravity.

Behaviors and activities are measured.
Demons do impact on these, in various ways.

That's how we surmise it's there.

Yes, that's how we know demons are there.

And even now there is a lab just a few hundred miles from me, over a mile underground called SNOLab in Sudbury, Ontario, that is looking for that gravity signature unaffected by noise from other particles emitted by the sun. So you see, if there is any way at all in which anything can have an effect in our "non-spiritual" world, then science can find a way to detect, it, because effects leave traces.

No.
Methodological naturalism
Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses. To avoid these traps, scientists assume that all causes are empirical and naturalistic, which means they can be measured, quantified and studied methodically.

Let me ask you this, although even if you were to answer, No, your post would scream, YES.
Do yu believe science is the only way to discover knowledge and 'truth' about things of this life?

 

[lukethethird]

Do yu believe science is the only way to discover knowledge and 'truth' about things of this life?

Science is the best way, but not the only way, and it is apparent by your posts that you do not know of a better way.

 

[nPeace]

Look what you wrote in Post #1. Demons "are not affected by matter" but "can affect matter." The laws of physics makes this impssible. For every action (affect upon matter) there is an equal and opposite reaction (another effect upon matter). In the case of a demon, which according to you cannot be affected by matter, such a reaction is simply impossible -- and therefore the initial action can be of no effect.

Well, you guys are the ones that think everything is matter, including your thoughts, so yes, demons can interact with matter - from your mentality to your cells... according to scripture, and do so undetected.

Scientists do not understand enough to claim that their beliefs are correct. History bears this fact out.
Anytime you think scientists have cracked the mystery of everything, and that things are impossible, remember how many times you've read things like this..
Universe Is 2X Older Than We Initially Thought
Earth and Moon Are Younger Than Thought

 

[nPeace]

Of course they are. Whatever else they may be, they are certainly an idea. Which is how we are able to discuss them.

Wouldn't that make practically everything an idea?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, you guys are the ones that think everything is matter, including your thoughts, so yes, demons can interact with matter - from you mentality to your cells... according to scripture, and do so undetected.

Scientists do not understand enough to claim that their beliefs are correct. History bears this fact out.
Anytime you think scientists have cracked the mystery of everything, and that things are impossible, remember how many times you've read things like this..
Universe Is 2X Older Than We Initially Thought
Earth and Moon Are Younger Than Thought

So desperate.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

so yes, demons can interact with matter

My last text to you on this subject -- show us what you have just stated, or I will simply assume you lack the intellect to be worth talking to. One interaction, just one, that can be explained no other way -- that's all it will take. It's amazing how little I ask for, really, but I think the odds are that this will be our last conversation.