Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[nPeace]

My last text to you on this subject -- show us what you have just stated, or I will simply assume you lack the intellect to be worth talking to. One interaction, just one, that can be explained no other way -- that's all it will take. It's amazing how little I ask for, really, but I think the odds are that this will be our last conversation.

Assume whatever you wish B. Bye.

 

[nPeace]

I'm not sure what your third bullet point means. But forgive me if skip this and refer you to all the posts that explain why the analogy is not a good one. I'm trying to keep up with conversations I have started, but my life has taken a busy turn lately.

I know how that is.

"Sufficed", silly, not "suffered". It means it was enough to make your point, which was "We don't learn about demons from scientists".

Oh. That's the fault of my eyes.

I was just noting that the majority of scientists favor the dark matter hypothesis. Nothing else implied.

There you go again.


Easy. There are three people involved in your baseball analogy. The Pitcher, that's me making arguments to address what you have previously said. The Batter, that's you responding to what I say. And the Umpire, who decides whether a given pitch was a "ball" or a "strike", in other words decides who "won" the argument. You were making yourself the Umpire as well as the batter when you labelled my arguments "ball" or "strike".

Do you see that by making yourself the Umpire, you are setting yourself up as the authority that determines the "truth"?

You only accused me, but you haven't explained why your accusation has any merit.
In other words, you haven't shown how the accusation fits.

I think you present yourself to be exactly as smart as you want us to think you are.

I really don't know what that's supposed to mean.

 

[nPeace]

what I have in mind is something that makes your demons more credible than invisible fairies in my garden.

what have you got?

ciao

- viole

Credible to whom?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Assume whatever you wish B. Bye.

Exactly as expected -- because you can't do the simple thing I asked. Accepting nonsense that can't be demonstrated over a realtity that is available for everybody to see cannot be considered the mark of a person using common sense. B bye yourself.

 

[nPeace]

@Alien826 I forgot to ask... Do you believe science is the only means by which we gain knowledge and truths?

 

[nPeace]

Why would a (perceived) increase in crime today be evidence of demons having existed on Earth ever since they were cast out of heaven? Why

It's not a (perceived) increase in crime today.
It's the clear evidence of changing attitudes and behavior on a global scale. 2 Timothy 3:1-5

wouldn't the negative impacts from demonic activity be relatively static throughout history and all around the world?

No, because according to the scriptures, the demons were not always restricted to the vicinity of the earth. Revelation 12:7-12

 

[danieldemol]

I don't think you understand what you are saying.

To the contrary, you are just asserting that i dont understand without explaining how my words are different in meaning to this lengthier exposition you appear to have copy pasted below in my view.

Dark Matter: Is It “Real Stuff” or Gravity Misunderstood?
So far, dark matter has never been observed directly – hence the name. What astronomers observe in the night sky are the consequences of matter that is potentially present: bending of starlight, stars that move faster than expected, and even effects on the motion of entire galaxies. Without a doubt all of these effects are caused by gravity, but the question is: are we truly observing additional gravity, caused by invisible matter, or are the laws of gravity themselves the thing that we haven’t fully understood yet?

Although we cannot see dark matter and we have not yet detected it in a lab, its presence is made known through gravitational effects.

How do we know that dark matter exists?

Dark matter is the name scientists have given to the particles which we believe exist in the universe, but which we cannot directly see!

I think I did. I think it's evident you don't understand though.

Then you should have no trouble quoting the actual words where you explained how i misunderstood as opposed to the words where you simply claimed i misunderstood in my view.

My style. Not yours.

The deficiency of your style is that it wastes time asking questions that have already been answered thereby giving others the impression that you either have listening issues or are a time waster in my view.

I'm using a source I consider reliable.
What reliable source do you have for an undetectable pixie-dwarf?

It doesn't matter if *you* consider it to be reliable, if you want us to believe it you have to convince *us* it is reliable in my opinion.

 

[HonestJoe]

It's not a (perceived) increase in crime today.
It's the clear evidence of changing attitudes and behavior on a global scale. 2 Timothy 3:1-5

You might need to re-read your own OP then, because there you specifically quoted an increase in crime as evidence for the existence of demons. You need to establish clearer measures of the changes you're suggesting and a clear timeline over which those changes have occurred.

No, because according to the scriptures, the demons were not always restricted to the vicinity of the earth. Revelation 12:7-12

Yes, but that is still a point in time (though not one that is identified). You are still suggesting that there was some moment when we changed from demons not being on Earth to demons being on Earth. If they have the kind of effects you're suggesting, you should be able to identify when that transition was, when the bad effects suddenly increased.

 

[PureX]

Wouldn't that make practically everything an idea?

Every idea is an idea. And ideas "exist". They have an actual physical effect in the actual physical world. Parasitism, for example, is an idea. Parasitism is also a very real physical phenomenon that has a very real effect in the physical world. Likewise, justice in an idea. And it, too, has a very real physical effect in the physical world, though our behavior.

So does the idea of God.

So for those who claim that "God isn't real because it's just an idea", they are simply wrong. Ideas are real and have a real effect in the physical world. Some more than others, however. The idea of God has an enormous effect in the actual physical world. The idea of unicorns has very little effect in the actual physical world. But it still does have an effect.

Metaphysics refers to the intersection between the realm of cognition and the incognizant realm of physicality. It's where ideas influence physicality. It is a very 'real' interaction having very real influence and effect. It's not just "make-believe" as the materialists so often like to assert.

Yes, every "thing" is also an idea. In fact a whole collection of them. And those ideas then in turn effect that thing. That's metaphysics.

 

[nPeace]

To the contrary, you are just asserting that i dont understand without explaining how my words are different in meaning to this lengthier exposition you appear to have copy pasted below in my view.

Then you should have no trouble quoting the actual words where you explained how i misunderstood as opposed to the words where you simply claimed i misunderstood in my view.

nPeace said:
Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

danieldemol said:
This is contradictory nonsense in my view.
Dark matter is not able to be detected directly, but we believe in it because because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly.

You called it contradictory nonsense - the fact that

• Dark Matter cannot be directly observed, or seen
• Dark Matter's effects on objects can be directly observed, or seen

You seem not to understand the difference between observing, or seeing Dark Matter, and seeing, or observing the effects upon objects.
So, I attempted to help you understand, with the following...

Dark Matter: Is It “Real Stuff” or Gravity Misunderstood?​

So far, dark matter has never been observed directly – hence the name. What astronomers observe in the night sky are the consequences of matter that is potentially present: bending of starlight, stars that move faster than expected, and even effects on the motion of entire galaxies. Without a doubt all of these effects are caused by gravity, but the question is: are we truly observing additional gravity, caused by invisible matter, or are the laws of gravity themselves the thing that we haven’t fully understood yet?​

​

Although we cannot see dark matter and we have not yet detected it in a lab, its presence is made known through gravitational effects.​

​

How do we know that dark matter exists?​

Dark matter is the name scientists have given to the particles which we believe exist in the universe, but which we cannot directly see!​

Especially after, this...
danieldemol said:
False;
'We know that dark matter exists because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly'
Source:
StarChild: Dark Matter

So, perhaps you had better explain what you considered contradictory nonsense and false, if you are agreeing with me.

The deficiency of your style is that it wastes time asking questions that have already been answered thereby giving others the impression that you either have listening issues or are a time waster in my view.

Well since you read the entire post before commenting, you can simply ignore my question, since I addressed the answer. That would be common sense thing to do, in my view.

I'm not reading the whole post before commenting.
Some are long, and I may have to break halfway through.
That's my style. It doesn't matter to me what impression is conjured up in your mind.
Every one has their likes and dislikes based on their opinions, biases, anger issues, mean-spiritedness, etc.

It doesn't matter if *you* consider it to be reliable, if you want us to believe it you have to convince *us* it is reliable in my opinion.

A man convinced against his own mind is of the same opinion still.
I don't want you to believe anything, and I am not here to convince you of anything.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some, who profess to go to church, do not believe what the Bible says about demons, angels, or the veracity of the Bible. They say they don't know, i.e., claiming there is no evidence, even though they profess to be Christian.

 

[YoursTrue]

Exactly as expected -- because you can't do the simple thing I asked. Accepting nonsense that can't be demonstrated over a realtity that is available for everybody to see cannot be considered the mark of a person using common sense. B bye yourself.

I was going to ask you a few questions about reality. But then I thought...nah..if you're going to quibble as to what IS reality? Cause we could get into it. But after several forays on these boards, I figure, ah, why engage in these types of discussions? Like ... Who is alive? What IS alive? After a while...forget it.

 

[YoursTrue]

nPeace said:
Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

danieldemol said:
This is contradictory nonsense in my view.
Dark matter is not able to be detected directly, but we believe in it because because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly.

You called it contradictory nonsense - the fact that

• Dark Matter cannot be directly observed, or seen
• Dark Matter's effects on objects can be directly observed, or seen

You seem not to understand the difference between observing, or seeing Dark Matter, and seeing, or observing the effects upon objects.
So, I attempted to help you understand, with the following...

Dark Matter: Is It “Real Stuff” or Gravity Misunderstood?​

So far, dark matter has never been observed directly – hence the name. What astronomers observe in the night sky are the consequences of matter that is potentially present: bending of starlight, stars that move faster than expected, and even effects on the motion of entire galaxies. Without a doubt all of these effects are caused by gravity, but the question is: are we truly observing additional gravity, caused by invisible matter, or are the laws of gravity themselves the thing that we haven’t fully understood yet?​

​

Although we cannot see dark matter and we have not yet detected it in a lab, its presence is made known through gravitational effects.​

​

How do we know that dark matter exists?​

Dark matter is the name scientists have given to the particles which we believe exist in the universe, but which we cannot directly see!​

Especially after, this...
danieldemol said:
False;
'We know that dark matter exists because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly'
Source:
StarChild: Dark Matter

So, perhaps you had better explain what you considered contradictory nonsense and false, if you are agreeing with me.


Well since you read the entire post before commenting, you can simply ignore my question, since I addressed the answer. That would be common sense thing to do, in my view.

I'm not reading the whole post before commenting.
Some are long, and I may have to break halfway through.
That's my style. It doesn't matter to me what impression is conjured up in your mind.
Every one has their likes and dislikes based on their opinions, biases, anger issues, mean-spiritedness, etc.


A man convinced against his own mind is of the same opinion still.
I don't want you to believe anything, and I am not here to convince you of anything.

I find it interesting that Jesus did not convince everyone he was the Messiah and the son of God. Neither did Paul after his momentous conversion. Both witnessed to some prestigious individuals who either did not believe them or opposed them in a most vicious way.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I was going to ask you a few questions about reality. But then I thought...nah..if you're going to quibble as to what IS reality? Cause we could get into it. But after several forays on these boards, I figure, ah, why engage in these types of discussions? Like ... Who is alive? What IS alive? After a while...forget it.

Well, since you put it like that...forgetting it is probably the best suggestion there is. I am alive, you are alive -- our combined 64 great-great-great-grandparents are all dead.

 

[YoursTrue]

Exactly as expected -- because you can't do the simple thing I asked. Accepting nonsense that can't be demonstrated over a realtity that is available for everybody to see cannot be considered the mark of a person using common sense. B bye yourself.

Some people's realities are not others' realities.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, since you put it like that...forgetting it is probably the best suggestion there is. I am alive, you are alive -- our combined 64 great-great-great-grandparents are all dead.

So?

 

[nPeace]

You might need to re-read your own OP then, because there you specifically quoted an increase in crime as evidence for the existence of demons. You need to establish clearer measures of the changes you're suggesting and a clear timeline over which those changes have occurred.

At your request, I looked again to see if I made a mistake. Sure enough, I didn't.
I can help you reread it in context .

Recently, in the News... in almost every region, talk has been around the level of increased crime.​

Persons say this is due to a range of factors, such as, COVID public health measures such as travel restrictions, school closures, lockdowns, and curfews, COVID sickness and death itself, and less aggressive police practices in response to Black Lives Matter and other organized criticisms of police use of force.​

​

These factors are not applicable in many lands where increasing crime is a problem.​

Also, they do not explain the mentality of individuals to commit evil acts on their fellowman.​

Appart from this, the world has become increasingly chaotic over the last century.​

​

Bible students recognize the increased lawlessness, and problems as evidence of demonic interference. These are signs they were instructed to expect, and look for.​

The Bible says, at Revelation 12.​

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.​

12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”​

(Revelation 12:7-12)​

The reference to the News, highlights what is evident - not to religious people, but officials all over the world... which is not the US.
It is evidence that lawlessness is going from bad to worst, as foretold. So that people around the globe, are taking notice.

Yes, but that is still a point in time (though not one that is identified).

Yes, it is identified. It's called the “last days“ - which refers to the last days of this world (this system of things under Satan's control, or rule - 1 John 5:19; John 12:31.

(2 Timothy 3:1) . . .know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. . .
(2 Peter 3:3, 4) 3 . . .know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his?. . .

The beginning of the last days, in this context, is referred to as Christ's presence - that is, his being present in kingdom power, which would be invisible to humans, but accompanied by signs, visible to all men, including non-believers... even if they deny the evidence.
(Matthew 24:3) “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

(Matthew 24:27) ...or just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be. . .

You are still suggesting that there was some moment when we changed from demons not being on Earth to demons being on Earth. If they have the kind of effects you're suggesting, you should be able to identify when that transition was, when the bad effects suddenly increased.

Yes, of course.
Unseen to human eyes, . . .war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

According to the scriptures, this occurred at Christ's enthronement as king. Revelation 12:5, 10
That enthronement was foretold by means of a prophecy in the Bible, which points to 1914, as the year, Jesus began ruling as king.

This is the year historians say "the world changed"
On a global scale - not just US - which is what Jesus sign in Matthew 24 refers to, the scope and intensity of lawlessness continue to increase, as foretold at 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 13

 

[YoursTrue]

So?

Ok never mind...lol

 

[nPeace]

Every idea is an idea. And ideas "exist". They have an actual physical effect in the actual physical world. Parasitism, for example, is an idea. Parasitism is also a very real physical phenomenon that has a very real effect in the physical world. Likewise, justice in an idea. And it, too, has a very real physical effect in the physical world, though our behavior.

So does the idea of God.

So for those who claim that "God isn't real because it's just an idea", they are simply wrong. Ideas are real and have a real effect in the physical world. Some more than others, however. The idea of God has an enormous effect in the actual physical world. The idea of unicorns has very little effect in the actual physical world. But it still does have an effect.

Metaphysics refers to the intersection between the realm of cognition and the incognizant realm of physicality. It's where ideas influence physicality. It is a very 'real' interaction having very real influence and effect. It's not just "make-believe" as the materialists so often like to assert.

Yes, every "thing" is also an idea. In fact a whole collection of them. And those ideas then in turn effect that thing. That's metaphysics.

Based on the definition of idea, I would not say that idea adds up.

 

[nPeace]

I find it interesting that Jesus did not convince everyone he was the Messiah and the son of God. Neither did Paul after his momentous conversion. Both witnessed to some prestigious individuals who either did not believe them or opposed them in a most vicious way.

The thing is, Jesus did not set out to convince everyone, since he knew that the majority would be as he described them - a wicked and adulterous generation. Jesus was looking for lost sheep, rather than stubborn goats.

(Matthew 25:31-33) 31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.