Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[Shaul]

As proof that demons exist I humbly submit for consideration the following exhibit,

Washington, D.C.

 

[SkepticThinker]

At your request, I looked again to see if I made a mistake. Sure enough, I didn't.
I can help you reread it in context .

Recently, in the News... in almost every region, talk has been around the level of increased crime.​

Persons say this is due to a range of factors, such as, COVID public health measures such as travel restrictions, school closures, lockdowns, and curfews, COVID sickness and death itself, and less aggressive police practices in response to Black Lives Matter and other organized criticisms of police use of force.​

​

These factors are not applicable in many lands where increasing crime is a problem.​

Also, they do not explain the mentality of individuals to commit evil acts on their fellowman.​

Appart from this, the world has become increasingly chaotic over the last century.​

​

Bible students recognize the increased lawlessness, and problems as evidence of demonic interference. These are signs they were instructed to expect, and look for.​

The Bible says, at Revelation 12.​

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.​

12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”​

(Revelation 12:7-12)​

The reference to the News, highlights what is evident - not to religious people, but officials all over the world... which is not the US.
It is evidence that lawlessness is going from bad to worst, as foretold. So that people around the globe, are taking notice.

And how, exactly, is this evidence for demons? Connect the dots for us.

Yes, it is identified. It's called the “last days“ - which refers to the last days of this world (this system of things under Satan's control, or rule - 1 John 5:19; John 12:31.

(2 Timothy 3:1) . . .know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. . .
(2 Peter 3:3, 4) 3 . . .know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his?. . .

The beginning of the last days, in this context, is referred to as Christ's presence - that is, his being present in kingdom power, which would be invisible to humans, but accompanied by signs, visible to all men, including non-believers... even if they deny the evidence.
(Matthew 24:3) “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

(Matthew 24:27) ...or just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be. . .


Yes, of course.
Unseen to human eyes, . . .war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

According to the scriptures, this occurred at Christ's enthronement as king. Revelation 12:5, 10
That enthronement was foretold by means of a prophecy in the Bible, which points to 1914, as the year, Jesus began ruling as king.

This is the year historians say "the world changed"
On a global scale - not just US - which is what Jesus sign in Matthew 24 refers to, the scope and intensity of lawlessness continue to increase, as foretold at 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 13

I hope this isn't your evidence for demons.

 

[Stevicus]

From Adam and Eve. Yes, of course.
The human traits they developed, were not due to the harsh struggles our ancestors had to endure just to be able to survive.

However, suppose I did agree with you, you don't have any evidence to support the claim, that evil tendencies developed due to the harsh struggles our ancestors had to endure just to be able to survive.
This is an assumption. True?

I would say it's a given that a hard life can make people hardened and tough, which can make them indifferent to others and willing to kill to survive. If people are hungry most of the time because there's little to no food, it seems that there would a propensity to store, save, ration, and even hoard food - even in times of plenty. That's where greed comes about, due to an underlying fear of running out.

Such things can even be discerned in society. Someone who is raised in a loving environment where they never experienced trauma or had to go without the necessities of life, they're likely to be more well-adjusted and moral than someone who was raised in abusive environment with trauma and deprivation. "It's easy to be a saint in paradise."

Greed and hatred? Thanks.
I know that there are qualities that many people have, and display on a daily basis - Such as those mentioned at Romans 1:29-31; Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:1-5

I know that these same people do not have qualities which are opposite to the above, and those you mentioned - Such as those mentioned at
Galatians 5:22, 23
That text says the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

When I see fruit on a tree, I don't have to ask, if the tree is real.
When people who strive to be know and be close to God, display such qualities, I don't ask if God's spirit is at work. I see it.
When I see people behaving opposite to the spirit of God, I always reflect on 1 John 4:8 - Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. . .

That, is to me, clear evidence of where human traits stem.
The behavior of this world, reflects the characteristics of the one controlling it -
(1 John 5:19) We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

The Bible helps me identify the link.
So, to answer your questions - The Bible does not say God create "these harsh realities", and greed and hatred are the cause of "these harsh realities". Not the result.
The universe is orderly. The Bible says God created it.

Using the word cosmos implies viewing the universe as a complex and orderly system or entity
The philosopher Pythagoras used the term kosmos (Ancient Greek: κόσμος, Latinized kósmos) for the order of the universe. Anaxagoras further introduced the concept of a Cosmic Mind (Nous) ordering all things

It's a very well organized system. That's why the moon can be said to be faithful.
You probably want to know if any "chaos" would be the doings of demons. The Bible says God will not let earth be ruined, so what "chaos" - whether on the earth, or outside of it occurs, the Bible says it's temporary
We do know that man causes ruin on earth though.

Yes, humans do cause ruin on earth, although humans also built quite a bit, too. Because nature in the raw was somehow insufficient to suit human needs. Humans had to learn how to make tools, build fire, find shelter from the elements, keep warm. But things didn't really start to take off for humanity until the plow was invented and humans figured out how to farm. I wouldn't say it was chaotic, but it was a "state of nature" which was indifferent - neither "good" nor "evil."

There's more evil on the earth without wars.

It can be said that wars are a symptom of evil.

Since when? World War 1?
I'll check it out and get back to you later.

I was referring to World War II. The casualties in that war were immense, while most other wars since that time have had much fewer casualties.

Why are you focused on wars though, when we are discussing evil... in all its forms?

War is a symptom of evil. People don't get angry and full of hatred and bloodlust in a vacuum - or if they're living in paradise where all their needs and desires are met. It's the deprivation of sustenance, along with abuse and tyranny (among other things), which bring that about.

No, you haven't.

Slavery is still legal in 94 countries
Slavery is not a crime in almost half the countries in the world, a study of global laws said on Wednesday

Article 4 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikisource, the free online library):


Article 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.


I agree that it's not being enforced and that such crimes and atrocities continue throughout the world. But it wasn't until relatively recently that people even started to recognize and understand that these were egregious wrongs that should never be done to any human being. It wasn't all that long ago that people believed that it was okay to burn people at the stake or put them to the rack or engage in many other sick, demented ways of torturing and executing people. People didn't think of them as atrocities, as most people would today. Even the Church gave the green light to these kinds of grisly actions taken against other human beings.

My main point is this: I'm still hopeful that justice may yet prevail on this earth, but humans will have to do it all by themselves. Humans will need to progress further.

A New Era of Conflict and Violence
The nature of conflict and violence has transformed substantially since the UN was founded 75 years ago. Conflicts now tend to be less deadly and often waged between domestic groups rather than states. Homicides are becoming more frequent in some parts of the world, while gender-based attacks are increasing globally. The long-term impact on development of inter-personal violence, including violence against children, is also more widely recognized.

Separately, technological advances have raised concerns about lethal autonomous weapons and cyberattacks, the weaponization of bots and drones, and the livestreaming of extremist attacks. There has also been a rise in criminal activity involving data hacks and ransomware, for example. Meanwhile, international cooperation is under strain, diminishing global potential for the prevention and resolution of conflict and violence in all forms.

I don't think you are seeing the bigger picture.

A key point is that humanity now has a much better handle on and understanding of the difference between right and wrong than we did even 100-150 years ago, when it was widely believed and accepted that aggressive warfare was a necessary and practical tool in national development and improvement. Now, we don't think in such terms anymore - even though it might still go on. I didn't say humans were perfect, but at least we're beginning to recognize and learn the difference between right and wrong better now than in the past.

Do we still have a long way to go? Yes, and there also appears to be some setbacks taking place. But again, the bottom line is that these are things humans do to other humans. The reasons, causes, and motivations can vary widely, but it's man's inhumanity to man - and only man can stop himself. Humans never needed any demons to do evil. As with everything else, we figured it all out on our own, including evil. No outside help was needed or required.

I agree that today, quite a lot of agreements have been made. However, let me get back to you later.
I have to jet.

 

[nPeace]

And how, exactly, is this evidence for demons? Connect the dots for us.

I hope this isn't your evidence for demons.

Did you read the second last sentence?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Did you read the second last sentence?

I read the whole thing.

 

[viole]

Credible to whom?

evidence is exactly what you need so that you do not need to rely on credibility.

usually, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But you seem to fail to provide even ordinary one.

so, where is it?

ciao

- viole

 

[HonestJoe]

According to the scriptures, this occurred at Christ's enthronement as king. Revelation 12:5, 10
That enthronement was foretold by means of a prophecy in the Bible, which points to 1914, as the year, Jesus began ruling as king.

OK, so we're slowly getting somewhere. Your hypothesis is that prior to 1914, there were no demons on Earth and after 1914, Satan and his demons were cast down to Earth and have "ruled" here ever since (apparently with Gods implicit consent)?

So now you need to produce evidence for that specific transition. Simply declaring that "the world changed" isn't evidence. You need to identify elements that didn't happen prior to 1914 and that could be best accounted for by demonic intervention, rather than the simple human failings that we have evidence of throughout recorded history.

 

[nPeace]

I would say it's a given that a hard life can make people hardened and tough, which can make them indifferent to others and willing to kill to survive. If people are hungry most of the time because there's little to no food, it seems that there would a propensity to store, save, ration, and even hoard food - even in times of plenty. That's where greed comes about, due to an underlying fear of running out.

I would say that conflicts with what we know of humans, who generally would starve than see another human suffer.
Why is that good side of humanity present even today, when people are in crisis? It's hardwired in us, but it's being eroded, as seems evident to most people.

Such things can even be discerned in society. Someone who is raised in a loving environment where they never experienced trauma or had to go without the necessities of life, they're likely to be more well-adjusted and moral than someone who was raised in abusive environment with trauma and deprivation. "It's easy to be a saint in paradise."

So, you are saying that savagery was first.
How did you get to a "loving environment"?

Yes, humans do cause ruin on earth, although humans also built quite a bit, too. Because nature in the raw was somehow insufficient to suit human needs. Humans had to learn how to make tools, build fire, find shelter from the elements, keep warm. But things didn't really start to take off for humanity until the plow was invented and humans figured out how to farm. I wouldn't say it was chaotic, but it was a "state of nature" which was indifferent - neither "good" nor "evil."

It can be said that wars are a symptom of evil.

The question is, where did evil stem, and why?

I was referring to World War II. The casualties in that war were immense, while most other wars since that time have had much fewer casualties.

I was looking at an article that made the point, you don't have accurate data on casualties of war, since civilian casualties result from wars and the repercussions of war, which are many, and widespread.

I haven't gotten back to that research as yet, but I will. Just give me some time.

War is a symptom of evil. People don't get angry and full of hatred and bloodlust in a vacuum - or if they're living in paradise where all their needs and desires are met. It's the deprivation of sustenance, along with abuse and tyranny (among other things), which bring that about.


Article 4 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikisource, the free online library):

Article 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.


I agree that it's not being enforced and that such crimes and atrocities continue throughout the world. But it wasn't until relatively recently that people even started to recognize and understand that these were egregious wrongs that should never be done to any human being. It wasn't all that long ago that people believed that it was okay to burn people at the stake or put them to the rack or engage in many other sick, demented ways of torturing and executing people. People didn't think of them as atrocities, as most people would today. Even the Church gave the green light to these kinds of grisly actions taken against other human beings.

You seem to be saying that people are only those who follow the thinking of those with those views.
There are people who don't consider those things as "egregious wrongs that should never be done to any human being".
Nearly half of the countries in the world... that's a lot of people.

My main point is this: I'm still hopeful that justice may yet prevail on this earth, but humans will have to do it all by themselves. Humans will need to progress further.

You are hopeful. You, and billions more. Hopeful.
Perhaps what you and these billions of people would be better off having, imo, is faith.

A key point is that humanity now has a much better handle on and understanding of the difference between right and wrong than we did even 100-150 years ago, when it was widely believed and accepted that aggressive warfare was a necessary and practical tool in national development and improvement. Now, we don't think in such terms anymore - even though it might still go on. I didn't say humans were perfect, but at least we're beginning to recognize and learn the difference between right and wrong better now than in the past.

That's not what I see.
I see those in a more superior position of power - that is, having the "biggest guns" holding strain on the ones holding the "mini weapon", and when those holding the "mini weapons" foot gets too big for their britches, they war.
Putin had "a big gun" hidden away, so he escaped the "sniper's scope".

Warfare is different now. The battle field results in too many losses.
Remember, when men fought with spears and daggers, no one wore helmets and breastplates.
Today, when a man sits in an armored tank, he doesn't need a breastplate or shield.
Now, a man can sit behind a computer and man a drone, or send data long distance... dismantling or even crippling an enemy.

It's a world driven by tech.

Do we still have a long way to go? Yes, and there also appears to be some setbacks taking place. But again, the bottom line is that these are things humans do to other humans. The reasons, causes, and motivations can vary widely, but it's man's inhumanity to man - and only man can stop himself. Humans never needed any demons to do evil. As with everything else, we figured it all out on our own, including evil. No outside help was needed or required.

I would believe that there were no strings attached to me, if I were a puppet and the strings were computer generated signals.
Doesn't mean there are no strings. I just believe I am doing it all.

 

[PureX]

Based on the definition of idea, I would not say that idea adds up.

What isn't adding up for you?

Just look at yourself as an example. There is the physical 'you'. And there is the idea of you that exists in both your mind and in the minds of all who know or know of you. And consider how those ideas of you effect your physical being. Especially your own idea of you. It's constantly determining and effecting everything you do. And much of what is done to you, too.

 

[nPeace]

OK, so we're slowly getting somewhere. Your hypothesis is that prior to 1914, there were no demons on Earth and after 1914, Satan and his demons were cast down to Earth and have "ruled" here ever since (apparently with Gods implicit consent)?

So now you need to produce evidence for that specific transition. Simply declaring that "the world changed" isn't evidence. You need to identify elements that didn't happen prior to 1914 and that could be best accounted for by demonic intervention, rather than the simple human failings that we have evidence of throughout recorded history.

The sign is a composite sign.

 

[Alien826]

You only accused me, but you haven't explained why your accusation has any merit.
In other words, you haven't shown how the accusation fits.

Do you want me to quote your own words back at you? I gave you my impression of what you were doing, I thought it was plain enough. Can't you just respond to what I said and, if you wish, show why you think I am wrong?

I really don't know what that's supposed to mean.

OK. This is actually a good example. You have a well honed and practiced technique where you claim not to understand something and ask that we explain things that, I feel, you understand perfectly well. Your "opponent" swallows the bait and gives a long and careful explanation only to be asked yet again to explain some minor point. Eventually the original point or question is lost in all the verbiage. I can't argue with it's success, or your skill in using it. We see it with politicians, who don't want to answer a question. In other words you present yourself as, well, stupid when you quite obviously are not stupid at all.

 

[Alien826]

@Alien826 I forgot to ask... Do you believe science is the only means by which we gain knowledge and truths?

Changing the question slightly, I don't think science is the only way we attempt to gain knowledge and truth.

Coming back to the question as asked, no, but I believe it is the most genuinely reliable method. Of course, you see divine revelation to be superior as you believe in divine revelation. That's perfectly logical within your belief system. I, on the other hand, don't believe that so I can only rely on observation of the natural world, and the scientific method is the best, well tested tool we have to do that. It's not perfect, just the best.

 

[nPeace]

I read the whole thing.

Good. Then why did you post this?

 

[nPeace]

Do you want me to quote your own words back at you? I gave you my impression of what you were doing, I thought it was plain enough. Can't you just respond to what I said and, if you wish, show why you think I am wrong?

Hmm. The escape hatch opens, and the alien ejects. Lol

I used a method of coming to truth. It's all there in the OP.
I haven't designed anything, or whatever, according to your analogy.

What's wrong with the method?

OK. This is actually a good example. You have a well honed and practiced technique where you claim not to understand something and ask that we explain things that, I feel, you understand perfectly well. Your "opponent" swallows the bait and gives a long and careful explanation only to be asked yet again to explain some minor point. Eventually the original point or question is lost in all the verbiage. I can't argue with it's success, or your skill in using it. We see it with politicians, who don't want to answer a question. In other words you present yourself as, well, stupid when you quite obviously are not stupid at all.

There goes the alien. Whoosh. Wheeeeeeee.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Good. Then why did you post this?

Because I need you to connect the dots and show how this is evidence for demons.

 

[nPeace]

Changing the question slightly, I don't think science is the only way we attempt to gain knowledge and truth.

Coming back to the question as asked, no, but I believe it is the most genuinely reliable method. Of course, you see divine revelation to be superior as you believe in divine revelation. That's perfectly logical within your belief system. I, on the other hand, don't believe that so I can only rely on observation of the natural world, and the scientific method is the best, well tested tool we have to do that. It's not perfect, just the best.

Would that not depend on what is being examined?
Is science the most reliable at our gaining knowledge and truth regarding ethical, moral, aesthetic, social, "issues"?

 

[nPeace]

Because I need you to connect the dots and show how this is evidence for demons.

Please explain what you do not understand from the OP, that fails in helping you "connect the dots" What specifically are you looking for?

 

[nPeace]

evidence is exactly what you need so that you do not need to rely on credibility.

usually, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But you seem to fail to provide even ordinary one.

so, where is it?

ciao

- viole

Did I provide evidence? Yes, or No?
If no, please tell me what evidence is.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Please explain what you do not understand from the OP, that fails in helping you "connect the dots" What specifically are you looking for?

I just did. Please connect the dots between your claim and please explain what the evidence is and how it ties into your claim.
I did not see any evidence that demonstrates the veracity of your claim.

 

[Alien826]

Hmm. The escape hatch opens, and the alien ejects. Lol

There goes the alien. Whoosh. Wheeeeeeee.

Sometimes I wish I was really an alien and could leave this crazy planet. Just a dream though. I'm stuck here.