Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[YoursTrue]

Yes, parents can only instill in their children, what's in the parent.

I felt sorry for the child. She did what she learned from her father.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Don't accuse me of your actions, and wasting my time with it.

Silly games it is then. I should have known better. Looks like I'm the one wasting my time here.

All I can conclude from this is that you can't connect those dots and you don't have a coherent argument. Oh well. Better luck next time.

 

[danieldemol]

nPeace said:
Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

danieldemol said:
This is contradictory nonsense in my view.
Dark matter is not able to be detected directly, but we believe in it because because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly.

You called it contradictory nonsense - the fact that

• Dark Matter cannot be directly observed, or seen
• Dark Matter's effects on objects can be directly observed, or seen

You are mistaking the context. "This is contradictory nonsense" came after your quoted text on demons, it did not say "This below is contradictory nonsense" and contained a paragraph break which you have omitted. So the way it was intended to be read was as calling your quoted text nonsense, followed by an explanation of the difference between dark matter and demons - dark matter can be detected indirectly through its effect on what we can directly observe whilst demons cannot be.

You seem not to understand the difference between observing, or seeing Dark Matter, and seeing, or observing the effects upon objects.

Strawman. I have only said we can observe the effects of dark matter upon other objects unlike demons.

So, perhaps you had better explain what you considered contradictory nonsense and false, if you are agreeing with me.

What's contradictory is your claim that demons have observable effects on objects we can see, yet are at the same time physically undetectable. That would make them indirectly detectable in my view, *not* undetectable.

What is nonsense in my view is that they have observable effects on objects we can see, for my explanation of that i refer you back to the cat analogy and its subsequent explanation.

Well since you read the entire post before commenting, you can simply ignore my question, since I addressed the answer. That would be common sense thing to do, in my view.

I'm not reading the whole post before commenting.
Some are long, and I may have to break halfway through.
That's my style. It doesn't matter to me what impression is conjured up in your mind.
Every one has their likes and dislikes based on their opinions, biases, anger issues, mean-spiritedness, etc.

To the contrary, in a world where most peoples time is precious it is entirely fair to point out unnecessary wastage of time. The mean-spiritedness in my view is yours for being mean with the precious resource of others.

I don't want you to believe anything, and I am not here to convince you of anything.

Then what is the point of claiming evidence if you have no intention to convince?

 

[lukethethird]

People ask for evidence of demons.
Is there any evidence? Yes, there is.

First, we must understand what a demon is.
What are demons?

In the Bible, a demon is defined as an angel of God, that is debased. That is, a rebel angel.
An angel, is a higher form of life - a spirit being.
Thus, an angel is a life form, far more intelligent, and far more powerful than anything, known to man.

In another thread, I tried to help an individual grasp that. Was I successful?
Reasonableness is required. Let's see how many are.
Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

Simply put... no puny instrument of man can detect a spirit being.
Does that mean, demons do not exist? No more than scientists believe Dark Matter, and Dark Energy are out there.
There are two ways to detect dark matter:

1. Indirect detection: Scientists use indirect methods to detect dark matter. For example, they look for the effects of dark matter on visible matter, such as the gravitational pull of dark matter on stars and galaxies. Another indirect method is to look for gamma rays, the highest energy form of light, which are released when two dark matter particles collide.
2. Direct detection: Scientists are also trying to detect dark matter directly. They are looking for the rare occasions when a dark matter particle collides with an atom in a detector on Earth.

Of course, the scientists are not seeing Dark Matter, but looking for what effects indicate the presence of Dark Matter.
The do so, based on their current understanding of how matter would, or should interact... according to their best educated guess.

The same is true of demons, and detecting their presence.
The Bible reveals knowledge about demons. It tells us, they are in opposition to God, and seeking to lead mankind in opposition to God.
Are they having success? What evidence do we have of their activity?

Recently, in the News... in almost every region, talk has been around the level of increased crime.
Persons say this is due to a range of factors, such as, COVID public health measures such as travel restrictions, school closures, lockdowns, and curfews, COVID sickness and death itself, and less aggressive police practices in response to Black Lives Matter and other organized criticisms of police use of force.

These factors are not applicable in many lands where increasing crime is a problem.
Also, they do not explain the mentality of individuals to commit evil acts on their fellowman.
Appart from this, the world has become increasingly chaotic over the last century.

Bible students recognize the increased lawlessness, and problems as evidence of demonic interference. These are signs they were instructed to expect, and look for.
The Bible says, at Revelation 12.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.​

12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”​

(Revelation 12:7-12)

So, it's a matter of knowing what to look for. If you aren't a scientist with knowledge of what to look for, you would never consider any notion of Dark Matter.
Likewise, if you are not a Bible student, and don't know what to look for, you would never give thought to the presence or influence of demons.

Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity.

Rather pathetic display of dissing the science that you misunderstand, and then you turn around and miss the point of the role that demons play in stories.

 

[stvdv]

Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity

I wanted to reply like "Demons don't exist"

BUT

then I read your last line...I agree with this

 

[Stevicus]

I would say that conflicts with what we know of humans, who generally would starve than see another human suffer.

There are some humans who might sacrifice themselves for the sake of others, particularly if it's family or close friends. But most people probably wouldn't.

Why is that good side of humanity present even today, when people are in crisis? It's hardwired in us, but it's being eroded, as seems evident to most people.

Sometimes the good side of humanity is present, sometimes it isn't. When times are good, food is plentiful, and the weather is fair, you'll see more happy, generous, and good people overall. But if times are bad, food is scarce, and the weather is stormy, then that "good side" fades away rather quickly.

So, you are saying that savagery was first.
How did you get to a "loving environment"?

Humans figured it out themselves.

The question is, where did evil stem, and why?

From humans, for various reasons as I've already described.

I was looking at an article that made the point, you don't have accurate data on casualties of war, since civilian casualties result from wars and the repercussions of war, which are many, and widespread.

I haven't gotten back to that research as yet, but I will. Just give me some time.

As far as deaths in WW2, I've seen figures which vary from about 50 million to nearly 100 million, depending on sources and how casualties are counted. The wars fought since then have had nowhere near that level of casualties.

You seem to be saying that people are only those who follow the thinking of those with those views.
There are people who don't consider those things as "egregious wrongs that should never be done to any human being".
Nearly half of the countries in the world... that's a lot of people.

It might not be that many people, but yes, there are some who have no scruples or morals. But even they likely know that they're doing wrong, which is why a lot of countries and governments try to conceal their crimes from public view. They know that the court of world opinion would go against them if many of their atrocities were made public, and even if they are made public, they try to play it down or justify it somehow. That's quite a contrast from the days when slavery was openly practiced and condoned, which is around the same time it was acceptable to use racial epithets and even advocate genocide with slogans like "the only good ______ is a dead ______." This was openly practiced and considered acceptable by the society at large. They didn't have to hide this detestable viewpoint, and only some people thought it was an egregious wrong.

Such attitudes changed over time - and maybe the unmitigated, unrestrained evil perpetrated in WW2 was a major wake-up call. Perhaps that may have finally changed enough minds that many governments decided such things could no longer be tolerated or considered acceptable by the family of civilized nations. That doesn't mean that such atrocities haven't continued, but as I said, governments and other such powerful organizations have to hide stuff like that nowadays. They can't do it openly.

This had become problematic and frustrating for some of America's leaders and warmongers, since they had to limit what they could do in open warfare. A new culture of secrecy descended on the government, along with a counter-culture of questioners wondering "Just what in the heck are they hiding?"

You are hopeful. You, and billions more. Hopeful.
Perhaps what you and these billions of people would be better off having, imo, is faith.

Faith in humanity, perhaps. We know that humans have evolved, and it stands to reason that humans will continue to evolve - if we survive. I think that we can still progress further in terms of political and social enlightenment.

That's not what I see.
I see those in a more superior position of power - that is, having the "biggest guns" holding strain on the ones holding the "mini weapon", and when those holding the "mini weapons" foot gets too big for their britches, they war.
Putin had "a big gun" hidden away, so he escaped the "sniper's scope".

Warfare is different now. The battle field results in too many losses.
Remember, when men fought with spears and daggers, no one wore helmets and breastplates.
Today, when a man sits in an armored tank, he doesn't need a breastplate or shield.
Now, a man can sit behind a computer and man a drone, or send data long distance... dismantling or even crippling an enemy.

It's a world driven by tech.

Yes, it is a world driven by tech, and nuclear weapons have been the great equalizer in terms of keeping nations at bay. But that doesn't refute my point. Another technological improvement has been in the area of communications technology, so people are made aware of what's going on in the world more quickly and immediately than in previous times. And with everyone with cellphone cameras these days, a lot of misbehavior and evil has been caught on video and exposed to the world. Putting a light on evil and exposing it can be effective (but not always).

I would believe that there were no strings attached to me, if I were a puppet and the strings were computer generated signals.
Doesn't mean there are no strings. I just believe I am doing it all.

It seems that a lot of evil might derive from volatile emotional states which are inherent in all humans, but manifested and expressed in a multitude of ways. If there's a way to control people's emotions, such as make someone feel more anger or hatred, then it may cause or manipulate them to do evil. Humans can even do that to other humans, oftentimes through emotional manipulation, although it wouldn't be actual "control" or like a puppet on strings. But they can still be tricked or deceived. Humans do that to other humans all the time.

Are you saying that demons do it, too?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Silly games it is then. I should have known better. Looks like I'm the one wasting my time here.

All I can conclude from this is that you can't connect those dots and you don't have a coherent argument. Oh well. Better luck next time.

I had no expectation that actual evidence and a compelling explanation of that evidence would be presented. We had one thread on this already without any substantial defense of the claim. I see that tradition is alive and well in this thread too.

 

[YoursTrue]

We can see here that some say they do have visitations from spirits. And some say they are mediums to dead persons. Yet those downing the Bible don't say anything about that. Very interesting. It seems even though they may go to church they down Bible believers but not those who claim to have contact with spirits.

 

[viole]

Did I provide evidence? Yes, or No?
If no, please tell me what evidence is.

Of course not. All you did is quote a book, whose supernatural claims have no evidence, either.

I told you, something that I cannot use to show evidence of invisible fairies in my garden, as well. Or any imaginary being I might make up.

Ciao

- viole

 

[PureX]

Right, so the universe existed as a reality. It was not an idea.

That it "existed as a reality" IS AN IDEA.

Brains did not exist for eons.
Same with God, angels, demons, etc.

That's irrelevant. Anything that exists only physically is irrelevant. Because relevance IS AN IDEA.

I don't really want to focus on what man came along later and thought.

"Later" is an idea. "First" is an idea. That you think these mean something IS "JUST" AN IDEA in your mind. The very thing that you are trying to claim not to be real are defining reality for you. Can't you see that?

God was not an idea in Adam's head. Maybe the image of God was, but that is different.

God has been the great mystery in the minds of humans since the dawn if humanity.

There is no reason for me to focus on what's in man's head. That's not what I am talking about.

Then focus on the fact that it is in man's heads. And that it always has been, and it has effected mankind, greatly, and is still doing so, because it's still in man's heads. Including your own.

 

[HonestJoe]

The sign is a composite sign.

That seems like an irrelevant distraction. If you must reference someone else's words, you should at least try to explain how they're relevant to your own.

You started this thread claiming to have evidence that demons exist. The problem is that you've not actually presented any evidence, you've just made some very general and inconsistent assertions about crime specifically and evil/chaos in general. You've not even presented any evidence for clearly defined changes in those things, let alone that the cause of any such changes is some form of demonic influence.

 

[blü 2]

If you read the OP, you would note...

• First, we must understand what a demon is.
• The Bible reveals knowledge about demons. It tells us, they are in opposition to God, and seeking to lead mankind in opposition to God.
• So, it's a matter of knowing what to look for. If you aren't a scientist with knowledge of what to look for, you would never consider any notion of Dark Matter.
• Likewise, if you are not a Bible student, and don't know what to look for, you would never give thought to the presence or influence of demons.

So, the question is, are you looking for what is expected, as evidence, or have you decided to just say, I don't believe?
If I said, I do not believe in any matter that is not what I presently accept, then I will not accept any notion of Dark Matter.
It means, I would not look for what is expected as evidence for such matter.

Are you saying you are not willing to look at what would be expected as evidence for demons?

Yo, nPeace

All things good with you, I trust?

As you say, first we must understand what a demon is. Demons are a category of imaginary being, usually pictured as servants or followers of a superbaddy, who may have any of a wide range of names, such as Satan, Lucifer (though as a Latinist you'd know that's also a name of Jesus in the NT), the Devil and so on. As with all imaginary beings, other physical and moral traits and practices may be added at will.

Second, the bible reveals knowledge about a lot of imaginary beings. It would sound rather disrespectful to note that DC Comics reveal a lot about Superman but no different principle is involved.

So it's a matter of knowing when to bother and when not to bother. If imaginary beings are causing the subject emotional or mental problems, such as anxiety or paranoia, then it's time to seek trained medical help, you'd surely agree.

I've read parts of the bible carefully, but I won't bother revisiting the parts about demons, because I see no point.

(As you know, both in comedies and in horror stories, at this point the demon fans rush forward and say, "AAGH! Demons are making you say that!!!! We must help you!!!" And that lovely one, "AAGH! Only those possessed by demons deny the reality of demons!!!! You ARE possessed!" But of course the demons they speak of exist only as things imagined in their brains, poor folks.)

 

[Alien826]

Sometimes the good side of humanity is present, sometimes it isn't. When times are good, food is plentiful, and the weather is fair, you'll see more happy, generous, and good people overall. But if times are bad, food is scarce, and the weather is stormy, then that "good side" fades away rather quickly.

I'll throw in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a pyramid of the needs that motivate people. Individuals most basic needs, at the base of the pyramid, are physiological. Once they have fulfilled these needs, people move on to their safety needs, social well-being, self-esteem then ultimately their need for...

www.simplypsychology.org

Briefly, the theory says we have levels of needs, the most basic being (food, sex, security) and the most developed being Self-Actualization (morality, creativity, etc). The idea is that until a lower level is substantially met, we can't work on higher levels.

Maslow worked in this theory through his life and the final theory was a lot less inflexible then the familiar pyramid suggests. However, it's what I think of when I see irrational behavior in those who are stuck at the lowest level.

 

[Alien826]

"We can see here that some say they do have visitations from spirits. And some say they are mediums to dead persons. Yet those downing the Bible don't say anything about that. Very interesting. It seems even though they may go to church they down Bible believers but not those who claim to have contact with spirits."

These words were posted by @YoursTrue as a quote by me. I did not write that, and I assume it was intended to be a response to something I, or someone else wrote. Just setting the record straight.

 

[Alien826]

Second, the bible reveals knowledge about a lot of imaginary beings. It would sound rather disrespectful to note that DC Comics reveal a lot about Superman but no different principle is involved.

Maybe a total non-sequitur, but I see one big difference. DC Comics has never claimed that Superman is anything but a fictional character, and that their intention is to entertain. The Bible on the other hand was written by people that did believe they were writing something factual.

I'm not sure if that adds anything to the discussion?

 

[lukethethird]

That it "existed as a reality" IS AN IDEA.

That's irrelevant. Anything that exists only physically is irrelevant. Because relevance IS AN IDEA.

"Later" is an idea. "First" is an idea. That you think these mean something IS "JUST" AN IDEA in your mind. The very thing that you are trying to claim not to be real are defining reality for you. Can't you see that?

God has been the great mystery in the minds of humans since the dawn if humanity.

Then focus on the fact that it is in man's heads. And that it always has been, and it has effected mankind, greatly, and is still doing so, because it's still in man's heads. Including your own.

God is not a great mystery any more than Santa Claus is. God is merely a figment of the imagination that some people never grow out of.

 

[lukethethird]

Maybe a total non-sequitur, but I see one big difference. DC Comics has never claimed that Superman is anything but a fictional character, and that their intention is to entertain. The Bible on the other hand was written by people that did believe they were writing something factual.

I'm not sure if that adds anything to the discussion?

Whether the authors of The Bible believed they were writing something factual or not is debatable., not that this adds anything to the discussion.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

God is merely a figment of the imagination that some people never grow out of.

In your personal opinion at least. My personal opinion, however, is that I honestly don't know if any deities exist or not. I don't entirely believe in the existence of gods because, so far in my 50 years of life, I haven't seen any kind of evidence that has convinced me of their existence or, at the very least, felt the presence of one in my life, even when I was a Christian. And while I practice Wicca and Druidry, I'm willing to acknowledge that I lack sufficient empirical evidence or any alleged evidence that multiple deities exist. Having said that, I choose to believe in the prospect of supernatural deities while recognizing the fact that I can't prove or disprove their existence. Ever since I was a child, I've been intrigued by spirituality and beliefs in the supernatural, but I won't claim that I'm fully confident that the God of the Bible or any other deities actually exist. In my opinion, I can't determine whether there is only one God, if there are other deities, or if there aren't any deities at all because I'm not all-knowing and all-powerful, and I can't be in all places at once or explore all of space and time. I acknowledge that I could be wrong or I could be right, but as of right now, at this point in my life, I'm not entirely sure.

Since I disavowed my Christian faith, I've decided that I don't need to believe in the biblical God or in any deities in order to be a good person, to make moral decisions, or to feel peace and contentment in my life. I no longer feel like I need to depend on some god to take care of me or my family. I no longer feel like I need to seek guidance from any gods, let alone the biblical God. I've learned that I can stand on my own and take care of myself. Now I think that my former belief in God was an emotional crutch, but I no longer need or want it in my life. To be honest, I feel like I'm much better off without it. I say that because my emotional well-being has significantly improved since I renounced my belief in God and left Christianity. Honestly, I think that people have to decide for themselves whether they believe gods exist based on the information that they believe is sufficient evidence or whether they don't believe gods exist based on what they consider a lack of evidence. I've yet to find any evidence that convinces me. When I was a Christian, I doubted because I never felt God's presence as other Christians claimed to experience. I spent the majority of my life seeking God, only to end up empty-handed.

 

[PureX]

God is not a great mystery any more than Santa Claus is. God is merely a figment of the imagination that some people never grow out of.

"God" is the term we use to refer to the great mystery: the mystery of source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is. And humanity has been aware of this mystery since humanity became self/other aware. That is an inescapable fact, contrary to your childish proclamations otherwise. It has been true for two hundred plus thousand years, and is still true today. As long as the questions remain, the mystery remains. And "God" is the term we currently use to refer to that elemental existential mystery.

 

[Trailblazer]

"God" is the term we use to refer to the great mystery: the mystery of source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is. And humanity has been aware of this mystery since humanity became self/other aware. And that is an inescapable fact, contrary to your childish proclamations to the contrary. It has been true for two hundred fifty thousand years, and is still true today. As long as the questions remain, the mystery remains. And "God" is the term we currently use refer to that elemental existential mystery.

I believe that the mystery remains because God wants our faith.
God could prove that He exists if He chose to, so the fact that God has never done that must mean that if God exists God wants our faith.

I think it would be foolish to believe if there was no evidence, but I believe that God has provided enough evidence for people to believe on faith and evidence.