Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[Stevicus]

For those who do, what's your objection?

I have no objection.

Isn't traumatic or abusive upbringing due to actions in opposition to God?
Why would that not indicate demonic influence?

It's a possibility, but I wouldn't automatically discount other possibilities. Although, as I mentioned earlier, many human traits came about through the harsh struggles our ancestors had to endure just to be able to survive. Humans have had to work within the harsh realities and parameters of nature. How can anything humans do to survive be considered "in opposition to God" if we're assuming that God created these harsh realities and parameters of nature? Did the demons create the universe, or did God create the universe?

Why is that not working out?

Human nature. It's how we evolved, even if some of us try to do better. If God created us, then that's how we were created.

It is working out, though - at least to some degree. If we cite evil behavior as evidence of demons, there's probably less of it now than there was during the time of the World Wars. Or back when there was slavery, colonialism, and other aggressive, violent, malevolent activities. One could argue that demonic activity, if we agree that such a thing exists, has actually come down over the past centuries.

 

[Ella S.]

I believe in demons.

You see them in the nightmares of soldiers who have returned home from war. Alcoholics see them at the bottom of the bottle. Sometimes you see them in the eyes of people who are struggling with depression, in the brief moments their facade of happiness slips and you get a glimpse at the crushing weight of what they deal with every day. Other times, you can hear them silently repeating every abusive word someone has ever spoken to you, often taking those words further than the people who said them.

Each of us has that little devil on our shoulder, whispering horrible things in our ear. It calls us names, degrades everything we care about, and tells us that relief from its abuse can only be found in indulgence. It tries to rile us up into fear, anger, and hate. It makes us more comfortable with doing what we know we shouldn't and tempts us to go further.

Who among us hasn't wrestled with our fair share of demons? Fear, entitlement, despair, sadism? I certainly know them well.

Are they supernatural beings who have abandoned paradise to make a new home in some lower plane of existence? Are they the thetans of casualties from an interstellar war? Are they wolf spirits fighting for dominance? Are they a metaphor for natural, psychological processes?

Does it really matter? They represent problems that are almost universal to the human experience. If you find something that can drown them out, then hold to it. Pull strength from it. Don't let the demons win.

 

[Ella S.]

I take it into consideration, but I don't take it as hard knowledge or definite fact.



If you're asking why some people act in lawless or other evil ways, then the answer may be complicated and varied on a case-by-case basis. Some of it may be due to a traumatic or abusive upbringing. It may also be due to physical damage to the brain itself. Some of it could be driven by duress and deprivation. There's a lot of human misery out there, and people can often respond in unpredictable and lawless ways - even if it just spreads more misery.

I suppose if there are any possible "demons" at work, then it seems to work through the volatility of human emotions and vulnerability and fragility of the human psyche.

I guess if we want to exorcise our demons, then we have to find a way to get rid of or subordinate our emotions. We should become more like Vulcans and eschew all emotions. If we base our decisions on logic and rationality, then we might see more favorable outcomes.

Vulcan religion often refers to emotions as an "inner chorus" of the old gods, not dissimilar to the way demons are sometimes treated in monastic traditions.

Kolinahr itself resembles the monastic retreat described in Spiritual Exercises by Ignatius of Loyola, which is meant to achieve a state similar to the dispassion (or "apatheia") of Stoicism through naming and exorcising the demons responsible for various sinful temptations.

This is because Vulcan philosophy was based off of real-world Stoicism and Enlightenment-era moral rationalism. They represent a very real ideal, which was more or less the role they were designed to fill for the sake of the stories that Star Trek wanted to tell.

You might already know most of this, but I thought the parallels were relevant to bring up.

 

[Alien826]

It is not saying "that because Dark matter is not detectable then other such things exist. Like demons"
The OP is saying what you acknowledged in your first ball. We don't learn about demons from scientists.

OK, if you wish. In that case I'm not sure why you went on about dark matter in such detail. You seemed to be trying to show some equivalence regarding undetectability. Your last sentence would have sufficed.

Remember, there are some who say Dark Matter does not exist. Some are scientists.

Agreed, though they are a minority. In fact, dark matter (and dark energy) are just "something that makes our equations balance", though the effects of it are observed and measured. Until it can be detected we can't say what it is, though educated guesses abound.

Oh, regarding the parts of your posts I omitted, you can't be player and umpire at the same time. It's a good way to appear to win, but convinces nobody.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can't say I know that much about dark matter, so I can't address that point. However, there are numerous possible explanations for the increased lawlessness and other problems which you cite as evidence of demonic activity. All of these things could be just as easily the result of humans being left to their own devices, without any outside spiritual presence to cause it. The structure of nature itself and human reactions to it could be enough.

Of course it is the result of human activity, not demonic activity. It is the result of humans who have free will to choose between good and evil, and left to their own devices, they choose evil.

If God exists, it could just as easily be a design flaw - a fault of the Creator, not of any lower-level demons or angels. If humans steal food because they're hungry, then who was it that designed them to be hungry in the first place?

The problem with that line of reasoning is that all humans get hungry but all humans do not steal food because of it, so why blame it on God?

I believe that all humans have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and our material or lower nature, and we all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures. If we choose to act according to our lower material nature we will be selfish, so bad things, maybe even evil things, but if we choose to act according to our spiritual nature, we will do good things, noble things, and we will become more spiritual.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60​

​

To read more: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN​

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see it as something coming from outside, but something more internal and intrinsic to our nature.

as I just explained to you in my previous post.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Actually, if you focussed on US, you would think the demons are not only sleeping, but partial.

When I was a boy, we used to leave our door opened.
We heard our parents relate how they went away and left their houses unlocked... even at night.

Now, people have double locks and chains on their doors, iron bars, on doors and windows, as if they are in prison.
Persons even lament on how church buildings that once remained opened are now usually closed, and to gain access one needs to have a key, or request entry.
You think this is due to population growth.

THE BIOLOGY AND PSYCHOLOGY OF CROWDING IN MAN AND ANIMALS​

CHARLES H. SOUTH WICK Professor of Pathobiology, The Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland 21205​

​

ABSTRACT​

Crowding is an ecologic and psychologic aspect of population density which produces a significant impact upon the behavior and physiology both of individuals and of social groups. In animal populations, an optimal level of crowding is often necessary for favorable social interactions, reproduction, and normal group organization. Beyond optimal levels, however, crowding may become a detrimental influence on the well-being of individuals within the population.​

​

Crowded animal populations often show a breakdown of normal social behavior, with increased aggression and violence, aberrant sexual activity, improper parental care, and abnormal states of activity, aggregation, or social withdrawal. A variety of stressrelated diseases and mortality patterns may ensue.​

​

The human populations of the world are rapidly becoming more crowded through excessive rates of population growth, urbanization, and increased social and communicative contact. Many urban areas throughout the world are showing classic symptoms of crowded animal populations.​

​

The above was written in 1971, when the world population was 3.77 billion -- a little less than HALF what it is today. These are the results of scientific study.

Let us also not forget the angst felt by millions who, while not totally up on the science, are beginning to realize that the threat to our very existence on this planet for much longer is very real. Or that AI might not be quite as benign as we'd like to think. Or that Putin may yet be backed into a corner and resort to nukes. Yeah, people will react emotionally and psychologically to all of that.

I'm still waiting to see a scientific study of even a single "demon." Just one will do!

 

[PureX]

Why do you think angels are an idea? Would that be like Dark Matter is an idea?

More like honor is an idea. An idea that represents phenomena that we perceive and value but cannot explicitly objectify.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

OK, if you wish. In that case I'm not sure why you went on about dark matter in such detail. You seemed to be trying to show some equivalence regarding undetectability. Your last sentence would have sufficed.

I see it as an attempt to take something unknown in science, but not unevidenced and equate it with a believed view that has no evidence. A false equivalence.

If this thing that cannot be seen is real, then what anyone claims must also be real. But what anyone claims doesn't seem to have evidence with regards to demons.

Agreed, though they are a minority. In fact, dark matter (and dark energy) are just "something that makes our equations balance", though the effects of it are observed and measured. Until it can be detected we can't say what it is, though educated guesses abound.

But there is reason to consider that something exists that is producing the outcomes that we observe and nothing else moves to the front as an explanation. I don't see this with claims of demons. Wars and crimes are all activities explained by human conditions with nothing to indicate supernatural interference. Someone acting strange and against their own interests could be a manifestation of mental health, drug abuse, heat stroke, lack of oxygen. Jumping from the observed symptoms to claims of demons seems based on belief and a desire to see these demons in action. What is required is evidence that has no alternative possibility.

Oh, regarding the parts of your posts I omitted, you can't be player and umpire at the same time. It's a good way to appear to win, but convinces nobody.

Good point.

 

[Alien826]

But there is reason to consider that something exists that is producing the outcomes that we observe and nothing else moves to the front as an explanation.

Indeed. Some scientists think it might indicate a problem with Relativity, and that's reasonable, though the problem has yet to be demonstrated as far as I know.

I don't see this with claims of demons. Wars and crimes are all activities explained by human conditions with nothing to indicate supernatural interference. Someone acting strange and against their own interests could be a manifestation of mental health, drug abuse, heat stroke, lack of oxygen. Jumping from the observed symptoms to claims of demons seems based on belief and a desire to see these demons in action. What is required is evidence that has no alternative possibility.

Looking at it in a general way, the human brain seems to have developed in layers, each layer building on the previous one. So what we have is a logical layer on top of, at the bottom, the "lizard" brain which tends to over-react to perceived threats. Politicians know this and use it to their advantage. Make someone afraid and all common sense departs. Then we have a significant percentage of psychopaths (I don't think they say "sociopaths" any more, could be wrong) that are physically unable to relate to the feelings of others. All in all, it's quite amazing that we manage to get along together to the limited extent that we do. No demons required.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's odd, though, isn't it, that violent crime in the US, while tipping up slightly, is very much lower than in previous decades. Should we take this to indicate that all the US demons were on holiday for 30 years or so?

And I think we might ask ourselves if there are many other sociological explanations for an increase. For example, when I was born, the world population was 2.5 billion, and is now over 8.0 billion. That's a massive change, and bound to be a stressor. Technology is massively greater than it was when I was born, too. View attachment 80365

Aha! Covid was demonic!! No wonder we had so much trouble with it.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Indeed. Some scientists think it might indicate a problem with Relativity, and that's reasonable, though the problem has yet to be demonstrated as far as I know.

I'm very curious about it, but I don't have the expertise to get into the meat of the issue. But observations as far as I know, assume relativity, but what little I understand of it, that it could challenge relativity.

Looking at it in a general way, the human brain seems to have developed in layers, each layer building on the previous one. So what we have is a logical layer on top of, at the bottom, the "lizard" brain which tends to over-react to perceived threats. Politicians know this and use it to their advantage. Make someone afraid and all common sense departs. Then we have a significant percentage of psychopaths (I don't think they say "sociopaths" any more, could be wrong) that are physically unable to relate to the feelings of others. All in all, it's quite amazing that we manage to get along together to the limited extent that we do. No demons required.

All that you point out has an explanation in brain physiology, psychology and environment. Claiming that a demon that we are already told is like dark matter in a sense and cannot be seen or detected, is an explanation and a better one requires more than the say so of a presumed expert in the Bible.

 

[Alien826]

I'm very curious about it, but I don't have the expertise to get into the meat of the issue. But observations as far as I know, assume relativity, but what little I understand of it, that it could challenge relativity.

It is interesting, isn't it? The challenge to relativity is a minority opinion as I understand it, and most go with the dark matter hypothesis.

All that you point out has an explanation in brain physiology, psychology and environment. Claiming that a demon that we are already told is like dark matter in a sense and cannot be seen or detected, is an explanation and a better one requires more than the say so of a presumed expert in the Bible.

Yes, that is what I was saying. (Not sure if you are just restating my position or not).

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It is interesting, isn't it? The challenge to relativity is a minority opinion as I understand it, and most go with the dark matter hypothesis.


Yes, that is what I was saying. (Not sure if you are just restating my position or not).

Pretty much a restatement. Sometimes when I'm tired posting, I manifest the obvious.

 

[danieldemol]

Demons

1. are unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter (Scientists have not yet observed dark matter directly. It doesn't interact with baryonic matter and it's completely invisible to light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation, making dark matter impossible to detect with current instruments)
2. can affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design (All galaxies appear to be dominated by [Dark Matter. In] fact, galaxies are thought to form inside immense halos of dark matter)

This is contradictory nonsense in my view.

Dark matter is not able to be detected directly, but we believe in it because because of the effect it has on objects that we can observe directly.

You claim that demons can effect matter, yet also say they are unable to be physically detected, yet if they effect physical matter then they can be detected just not directly. So which is it?

If you are going to run with *like dark matter we can infer their presence from the effect they have on things we can observe*, then you have to explain why demons are a better explanation than other things we can directly observe.

For example if a glass moves off the table but we observe a cat pushing it then you can't explain it using demons because there is a natural explanation we can observe which displaces the immaterial explanation.

And this is where I believe the demon idea runs into serious trouble, because we can observe the effect that brain structure, chemistry, upbringing, environment etc have on behaviour, therefore we have natural drivers of behaviour which displace undetectable demons as the likely explanation for behaviour just like with the simpler example I gave of the cat being the driver of the glass flying off the table.

Kudos for starting a new thread so new readers aren't aware that this is P.R.A.T.T that was refuted in the prior thread in my view.

 

[nPeace]

Just show us your evidence of demons. Where is it? All I see is some useless blah blah, that can be applied to basically everything.

Just talking about them does not make them real, obviously.Especially when predicated on Scriptures, that has no evidence to be true, either.

So, what have you got that we can submit to rational analysis?

Ciao

- viole

Typing Exercise?
I have a better idea. 5 words.
What is evidence, so that I can see what evidence you have in mind?
What Evidence Is.

 

[Viker]

No. I believe in them. Once again, this is something I can not prove.

 

[nPeace]

I have no objection.

Interesting.

It's a possibility, but I wouldn't automatically discount other possibilities. Although, as I mentioned earlier, many human traits came about through the harsh struggles our ancestors had to endure just to be able to survive.

Sounds like a claim.
What traits exactly? What's your evidence?

Humans have had to work within the harsh realities and parameters of nature. How can anything humans do to survive be considered "in opposition to God" if we're assuming that God created these harsh realities and parameters of nature? Did the demons create the universe, or did God create the universe?

I'm waiting for examples of the traits you are referring to, so that I can answer your question.
I don't think we are talking about the same thing. At least it doesn't seem that way to me.

Human nature. It's how we evolved, even if some of us try to do better.

What evidence do you have for that?

If God created us, then that's how we were created.

God didn't create us.
We are the offspring of two people, the Bible says were created by God.
How we are, is from our fore-parents, and the traits they passed on to us.

It is working out, though - at least to some degree. If we cite evil behavior as evidence of demons, there's probably less of it now than there was during the time of the World Wars. Or back when there was slavery, colonialism, and other aggressive, violent, malevolent activities. One could argue that demonic activity, if we agree that such a thing exists, has actually come down over the past centuries.

You say probably.
Is that because you are not sure.
Could you post me the data, that says we have less evil today... So we can be sure.

 

[nPeace]

OK, if you wish. In that case I'm not sure why you went on about dark matter in such detail. You seemed to be trying to show some equivalence regarding undetectability. Your last sentence would have sufficed.

Not following.
I used Dark Matter to show. something can exist and

• be unable to be physically detected, since they are invisible, and not affected by matter
• affect matter, unknowingly, except one is aware of their design
• be shown to exist, based on an understanding of what it is, and how it's expected to behave .

Similar to demons.

Please explain how my last sentence suffered.

Agreed, though they are a minority.

It's about numbers?

In fact, dark matter (and dark energy) are just "something that makes our equations balance", though the effects of it are observed and measured. Until it can be detected we can't say what it is, though educated guesses abound.

Okay, so explain the differences.
I see some, but none you would like, so you go first.

Oh, regarding the parts of your posts I omitted, you can't be player and umpire at the same time. It's a good way to appear to win, but convinces nobody.

I'm disappointed. You were doing so well.
Seems you can't get the third strike. However, I give you more credit than most here, so explain please, how you reached the conclusion that I am being the player and umpire.

Yeah. I need an explanation. I'm not that smart, you see.
Pitch.

 

[nPeace]

THE BIOLOGY AND PSYCHOLOGY OF CROWDING IN MAN AND ANIMALS​

CHARLES H. SOUTH WICK Professor of Pathobiology, The Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland 21205​

​

ABSTRACT​

Crowding is an ecologic and psychologic aspect of population density which produces a significant impact upon the behavior and physiology both of individuals and of social groups. In animal populations, an optimal level of crowding is often necessary for favorable social interactions, reproduction, and normal group organization. Beyond optimal levels, however, crowding may become a detrimental influence on the well-being of individuals within the population.​

​

Crowded animal populations often show a breakdown of normal social behavior, with increased aggression and violence, aberrant sexual activity, improper parental care, and abnormal states of activity, aggregation, or social withdrawal. A variety of stressrelated diseases and mortality patterns may ensue.​

​

The human populations of the world are rapidly becoming more crowded through excessive rates of population growth, urbanization, and increased social and communicative contact. Many urban areas throughout the world are showing classic symptoms of crowded animal populations.​

​

The above was written in 1971, when the world population was 3.77 billion -- a little less than HALF what it is today. These are the results of scientific study.

Let us also not forget the angst felt by millions who, while not totally up on the science, are beginning to realize that the threat to our very existence on this planet for much longer is very real. Or that AI might not be quite as benign as we'd like to think. Or that Putin may yet be backed into a corner and resort to nukes. Yeah, people will react emotionally and psychologically to all of that.

Sounds like an opinion to me. What do you think? Is it an opinion?

I'm still waiting to see a scientific study of even a single "demon." Just one will do!

Scientific study? Dude... When will you guys get it through your skulls. Science don't do God and Demons. Oh dear me.