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Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ad hominem.

No. When people deny there are thousands of denominations of christianity, then they are simply mistaken.
Now, it could be that they are just ignorant about it... But considering you don't live somewhere in the jungle and have access on the internet...
I have issues with taking your denial seriously.

So either you are not being honest, or your head is firmly lodged into the ground.
I went with the latter. The alternative of that assumption would be to call you a liar. So you should actually be glad that I went that way.

Would you prefer that I call you a liar?

Go ahead. Provide the data that says otherwise.

I already provide you with a wiki link that lists many many many denominations, and clicking through those you will be able to see that those themselves are also broken up into multiple denominations.


Sounds biased to me.

Yes. I'm "biased" toward things that can actually be supported by evidence.
Sue me.



I'm skipping the rest because it is just to tiresome to continue dealing with your false accusations, outright lies, misrepresentations and your silly arguments that have already been addressed countless times.


Have fun continuing to argue strawmen and no true scottsman fallacies.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I find it interesting, that people are willing to believe in the idea that all life evolved from a common ancestor, when they take circumstantial evidence, and call that objective evidence for their claim.
Yet, billions of people, including thousands of scientists, cannot see that evidence as supporting belief in that theory.
Then these same people say, they need objective evidence for the existence of demons, but can't take the circumstantial evidnce presented.


You're presenting Biblical scripture as facts in evidence rather than claims that would need independent evidence to support them.
Really?
Let's see if that is true.
I read in a couple books that when a Tsunami is imminent, the seas on the shore will, recede. I believe it. I also have confidence that the information is reliable, since it has proved to be, in the past, and the source is trustworthy.

I'm at the beach, and I start seeing the sea receding, revealing a vast amount of seabed.
I reflect on the knowledge I gained from the books, and recognize the evidence - the sea receding, as evidence of an imminent tsunami.
I start pointing to the evidence - the sea receding, as evidence of an imminent tsunami, and warning people of what they don't see.

Some people say to me, "You idiot! Do you see a tsunami. Get off the so and so beach and leave me alone, before I go Rambo on you. You nerd!" :mad:
I digress. I'm an idiot, using a stupid book as evidence.

Is that how you see it? Really?

Taking your OP alone, the only actual evidence you present is your statements about crime and chaos in general increasing in the world. Not only is that assertion questionable depending on exactly what you're measuring and how, I question the idea that things are significantly worse that any other point in human history. The idea of there being some definitive transition point that needs a specific explanation isn't evident.
People question lots of things.
Some people are content to say, "Well i don't know why the youth are this way, or why we cannot accomplish these goal, though they seem attainable, but I am not interested in no stupid book. Leave me alone in my stupid ignorance. If I am to die, so be it."

Regardless, changes in crime or general negative aspects of society can be and are explained by a combination of any number of different factors, which is why those things have always varied significantly, by both time and place. There is no need for there to be some additional external force causing these things. As yet unknown factors could exist of course (including, but not exclusively, Biblical demons) but the effects in themselves are not evidence of any specific new cause.
People do not understand why, as said by most.
"the world changed"
They just live with change. After all, to them, it's life - normal.

The thing is, if we see changes at a time matching events that would significantly impact on the world, then if we ignore said events, we are simply ignoring evidence, and not being as scientific as we claim.

For example, scientists say the earth 's rotation shifts with earthquakes.
Even though they are other factors that affect earth's rotation, the event and timing of an earthquake is not ignored.
That's just an example I can think of at the moment..

The change with regard to our world, was noticed at a time when certain events, invisible to human eyes occured, but which events were known would occur, and recorded for those who "have ears to hear".
The Bible revealed
If everyone were to believe and accept this, I would not be the only most surprised man on earth. I think all the chickens would drop dead from shock. :D
We - Bible students, not scientists, and the world alienated from God - will recognize, and pay attention. For us, we know it means our life, and yours... but that's up to you, not me.

Anyway, your OP also claims that only a "Bible student" will be able to see and understand this, so you're not presenting comprehensive evidence at all. Note that this is not the same as scientists and dark matter since anyone is able to observe the effects and evidence around dark matter and even come to understand them to an extent. Even you express a level of understanding of the concepts of dark matter here.
The OP says clearly... at least it seems pretty clear.
Bible students recognize the increased lawlessness, and problems as evidence of demonic interference. These are signs they were instructed to expect, and look for.

So, it's a matter of knowing what to look for. If you aren't a scientist with knowledge of what to look for, you would never consider any notion of Dark Matter.
Likewise, if you are not a Bible student, and don't know what to look for, you would never give thought to the presence or influence of demons.

Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity.


Just as anyone is able to observe the effects and evidence around dark matter and even come to understand them to an extent, anyone can do the same in the case of demons.
All scientists do not accept Dark Matter. The phenomenon is associated with other explanation.
All people do not accept demons. As you said, there accept other explanations for the foretold events.

So, I think you either misunderstood what the OP is saying, or this is an attempt at a strawman.

You were saying you shouldn't need to present your argument in a manner people can understand.
Where did I say that?

Now you're accepting that you do but claiming you already have?
???

The fact remains that nobody here seems to have fully understood your position, certainly not to the point of considering it viable. Again, isn't it possible that you're not being as clear as you think you are?
You don't know that, and obviously that is not true.
Maybe you might speak for yourself.
I also believe if others said the same, they would not be speaking the truth.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
How would you know that though? What is the difference between bad things caused by demons and bad things caused by anything else?
On a small scale, it may be hard to tell.
On a major scale, and considering - not dismissing the matching events, it's clear.
2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14; Revelation 6; Revelation 127-12 etc.

Example...
[Scientists say] all earthquakes have some affect on Earth's rotation. It's just they are usually barely noticeable.
"Any worldly event that involves the movement of mass affects the Earth's rotation, from seasonal weather down to driving a car," Chao said.

Japan Quake May Have Shortened Earth Days, Moved Axis
"Earth's rotation changes all the time as a result of not only earthquakes, but also the much larger effects of changes in atmospheric winds and oceanic currents," he said. "Over the course of a year, the length of the day increases and decreases by about a millisecond, or about 550 times larger than the change caused by the Japanese earthquake. The position of Earth's figure axis also changes all the time, by about 1 meter (3.3 feet) over the course of a year, or about six times more than the change that should have been caused by the Japan quake."

Gross said that while we can measure the effects of the atmosphere and ocean on Earth's rotation, the effects of earthquakes, at least up until now, have been too small to measure. The computed change in the length of day caused by earthquakes is much smaller than the accuracy with which scientists can currently measure changes in the length of the day. However, since the position of the figure axis can be measured to an accuracy of about 5 centimeters (2 inches), the estimated 17-centimeter shift in the figure axis from the Japan quake may actually be large enough to observe if scientists can adequately remove the larger effects of the atmosphere and ocean from the Earth rotation measurements. He and other scientists will be investigating this as more data become available.

That's easy to connect, I hope.

Does that mean you do know? Please do share that reason with the rest of us.
The Bible explains, Satan is confined to the vicinity of the earth until his time of imminent imprisonment before the thousand year rule of Christ, and imminent destruction, shortly after the thousand year rule of Christ. Revelation 20:1-10

As to why Satan was not placed in an "isolated cell" you'll need to understand the issues involved in God allowing suffering.

As you know though, an orderly person does not do things in a chaotic and haphazard way, but orderly and progressive.
So the Bible informs us, the heavens were cleansed first, when Christ's campaign to bring all things back to God, began. The earth's cleansing is to follow. Matthew 6:10; Ephesians 1:10; Revelation 12:12; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

This is another good reason not to ignore the evidence of Christ's presence, and increased demonic activity on earth.
It's evidence "the Great day of Jehovah is near." Zephaniah 1:14; 2:2, 3

It isn't really about you, but more anyone else reading who might not be as clear on the flaws in your position. I'm just adding balance. Debates are rarely about the debaters themselves but about the audience.
Thanks, but complaining is not adding balance.
Addressing what you oppose is "adding balance".

For example, if you said there are no fish in the sea, I'm not going to spend an hour trying to get you to say there are fish in the sea.
I'll simply show you that there are fish in the sea. That's adding balance.
Now you can dispute that they are not fish.

I don't expect you to change your position any more than you expect me to change mine, though it would be nice if you conceded that you have not provided anything like as clear and comprehensive evidence for your claims as you think.
I concede there are some people... and I haven't met them anywhere other than on RF, who like you to spoon feed them like babies.
However, I don't believe it's because they don't get it. I think they do, but just have a hard time dealing with what they are faced with. Not being able to refute it, they try to dismiss it, without appearing too much in denial.

I also wanted to push back against the common issue of scientific terms and concepts being thrown around in matters of religious belief, but formal scientific method being dropped as soon as it becomes inconvenient.
Please elaborate and explain.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
No. When people deny there are thousands of denominations of christianity, then they are simply mistaken.
Now, it could be that they are just ignorant about it... But considering you don't live somewhere in the jungle and have access on the internet...
I have issues with taking your denial seriously.

So either you are not being honest, or your head is firmly lodged into the ground.
I went with the latter. The alternative of that assumption would be to call you a liar. So you should actually be glad that I went that way.

Would you prefer that I call you a liar?



I already provide you with a wiki link that lists many many many denominations, and clicking through those you will be able to see that those themselves are also broken up into multiple denominations.




Yes. I'm "biased" toward things that can actually be supported by evidence.
Sue me.



I'm skipping the rest because it is just to tiresome to continue dealing with your false accusations, outright lies, misrepresentations and your silly arguments that have already been addressed countless times.


Have fun continuing to argue strawmen and no true scottsman fallacies.
That was fast.
run-away-gif.3297538

Sounds like you described yourself though.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
No. When people deny there are thousands of denominations of christianity, then they are simply mistaken.
Now, it could be that they are just ignorant about it... But considering you don't live somewhere in the jungle and have access on the internet...
I have issues with taking your denial seriously.

So either you are not being honest, or your head is firmly lodged into the ground.
I went with the latter. The alternative of that assumption would be to call you a liar. So you should actually be glad that I went that way.

Would you prefer that I call you a liar?

I already provide you with a wiki link that lists many many many denominations, and clicking through those you will be able to see that those themselves are also broken up into multiple denominations.

The truth is that Christians are very divided and intentionally separate themselves into different churches and adhere to different doctrines and scriptural interpretations, which has occurred in both historical and contemporary Christianity. Catholics and Protestants have different church doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations of the Bible. So do Mormons (LDS), Jehovah's Witnesses, Messianic Jews, and Orthodox Christians, which include Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Greek Orthodox. Also, there are Baptists (First Baptist, Second Baptist, Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Anabaptist, Freewill Baptist, and others), Methodists, Mennonites, Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God, Apostolic Church, Quakers, Pentecostals, Church of God, and many other various churches that aren't on the list. In fact, the precise number of Christian denominations is debatable.

Of course, Christians aren't united, and they never have been. The majority of Christians have the perpetual habit of accusing other Christians of not being "true Christians," and this accusation is as old as Christianity itself (read 1 Corinthians 1:10–17). The problem I have with Christians accusing other Christians of not being true followers of Jesus is that they can never agree on what the Bible truly says, and they constantly argue, insult, and fight one another about what they believe the Bible teaches. The truth is that if you ask the same theological question to a broad group of Christians, you will receive very different answers. All of these Christians will cite the Bible in an attempt to defend their answers, even though their answers are very different and contradictory.

It is also worth noting that they don't agree on whether salvation in Jesus Christ is unconditional or not, although they all read the Bible. Some Christians claim that a person's salvation is conditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Some Christians claim that a person's salvation is unconditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Yet other Christians claim that baptism or speaking in tongues is required for salvation, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. They contradict each other.

Questions about how to properly baptize believers (fully immersed in water or sprinkled with water), whether it is biblical for women to be pastors, and about the alleged end times (pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, and the rapture of Christians) would elicit the same kind of derision among Christians. Not to mention the churches staking their claim as the "true church" and implying that Christians in other churches are wrong in their theology and biblical interpretation. They even argue about whether Jesus' mother remained a virgin after giving birth to him or if she had other children after him.

Ironically, they all believe that they are correct about their beliefs and everyone else (including other Christians) is wrong about theirs, but then they have the audacity to claim that the Bible is the word of God and Christianity is the only true religion in the world. In my opinion, there's no reason to believe any of them. I think it's unreasonable for any Christian to claim that their biblical interpretation and theology are correct while insisting that other Christians are wrong, that the Bible is divinely inspired, and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. It is also irrational, in my opinion, that Christians seem to expect non-Christians to accept the Bible as divinely inspired and the final authority on moral issues, yet they can't agree on what the Bible says.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I find it interesting, that people are willing to believe in the idea that all life evolved from a common ancestor, when they take circumstantial evidence, and call that objective evidence for their claim.
Yet, billions of people, including thousands of scientists, cannot see that evidence as supporting belief in that theory.
Then these same people say, they need objective evidence for the existence of demons, but can't take the circumstantial evidnce presented.
Kind of a tangent and I'm not getting drawn in to an evolution discussion on this thread but there are clear differences. The idea of common ancestors is built upon objective evidence for many of the underlying processes and biological mechanisms, and is a logical extension of that evidence. Not definitive but strongly supported. There is no objective evidence relating to anything about Biblical demons, and so that kind of hypothesis would need a whole load more underlying study to come close to a similar status.

I digress. I'm an idiot, using a stupid book as evidence.
Please don't put words in my mouth (and you accuse me of strawman arguments!). I never insulted the Bible in that way.

People question lots of things.
Yes, typically with the intent of getting answers. You keep avoiding answering those questions though.

The thing is, if we see changes at a time matching events that would significantly impact on the world, then if we ignore said events, we are simply ignoring evidence, and not being as scientific as we claim.
If. The problem is that you're claiming to have evidence that events are matching events depicted in scripture but you've not done that, not least because the scripture in question is so general, poetically worded and, of course, oft-translated, that you could spin it to fit pretty much any point in human history. Indeed, aren't there plenty of examples of people doing exactly that in the past?

Just as anyone is able to observe the effects and evidence around dark matter and even come to understand them to an extent, anyone can do the same in the case of demons.
It isn't the same at all. The effects that led to the concept of dark matter have no known cause (just alternative hypotheses). The underlying concepts, logic and technical details have been deeply studied, tested and refined over the years and anyone can gain a level of understanding of it, depending on how much effort they're willing and able to put it. Even those scientists who don't support the idea understand it at that technical level.

You don't have any of the with demons. The effects you've referred to have always existed to various extents, with mundane causes that are largely recognised and understood (if complex). They don't require anything new to explain them. And unlike dark matter, which would still generally operate within the known mechanisms of the universe, the existence of "supernatural" demons would require a whole load of new underlying concepts and mechanisms to exist.

On a small scale, it may be hard to tell.
On a major scale, and considering - not dismissing the matching events, it's clear.
Again, that is only true if you're treating those scriptures as factual and accurate (as per the interpretations you've been taught) and real world events actually match those scriptures.

I don't see how that supports your point. So natural events can impact Earths rotation, albeit in relatively tiny amounts. As the quotes you gave say though, the kind of natural events that have the biggest effect (the atmosphere and oceans) will have always happened, long before humans even existed. That would be the very opposite of a defined change in events that could indicate the influence of demons.

The Bible explains....
I didn't ask what the Bible says. You said it is a mystery to many but anyone can read the Bible. If people get different answers from the same text, how can you know your answer is the right one?

I concede there are some people... and I haven't met them anywhere other than on RF, who like you to spoon feed them like babies.
That is still not what I'm saying (strawman irony again). I'm not asking for simplification, I am asking for more detail and clarification. I've also not dismissed anything, I've only stated that I (like others apparently) don't find your argument anything like as convincing as you seem to imagine it to be.

Please elaborate and explain.
In this context, your claim to be presenting evidence but outright refusing to present any kind of meaningful hypothesis, even in basic terms. We still don't know exactly what your evidence is meant to be evidence of.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
The truth is that Christians are very divided and intentionally separate themselves into different churches and adhere to different doctrines and scriptural interpretations, which has occurred in both historical and contemporary Christianity. Catholics and Protestants have different church doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations of the Bible. So do Mormons (LDS), Jehovah's Witnesses, Messianic Jews, and Orthodox Christians, which include Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Greek Orthodox. Also, there are Baptists (First Baptist, Second Baptist, Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Anabaptist, Freewill Baptist, and others), Methodists, Mennonites, Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God, Apostolic Church, Quakers, Pentecostals, Church of God, and many other various churches that aren't on the list. In fact, the precise number of Christian denominations is debatable.

Of course, Christians aren't united, and they never have been. The majority of Christians have the perpetual habit of accusing other Christians of not being "true Christians," and this accusation is as old as Christianity itself (read 1 Corinthians 1:10–17). The problem I have with Christians accusing other Christians of not being true followers of Jesus is that they can never agree on what the Bible truly says, and they constantly argue, insult, and fight one another about what they believe the Bible teaches. The truth is that if you ask the same theological question to a broad group of Christians, you will receive very different answers. All of these Christians will cite the Bible in an attempt to defend their answers, even though their answers are very different and contradictory.

It is also worth noting that they don't agree on whether salvation in Jesus Christ is unconditional or not, although they all read the Bible. Some Christians claim that a person's salvation is conditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Some Christians claim that a person's salvation is unconditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Yet other Christians claim that baptism or speaking in tongues is required for salvation, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. They contradict each other.

Questions about how to properly baptize believers (fully immersed in water or sprinkled with water), whether it is biblical for women to be pastors, and about the alleged end times (pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, and the rapture of Christians) would elicit the same kind of derision among Christians. Not to mention the churches staking their claim as the "true church" and implying that Christians in other churches are wrong in their theology and biblical interpretation. They even argue about whether Jesus' mother remained a virgin after giving birth to him or if she had other children after him.

Ironically, they all believe that they are correct about their beliefs and everyone else (including other Christians) is wrong about theirs, but then they have the audacity to claim that the Bible is the word of God and Christianity is the only true religion in the world. In my opinion, there's no reason to believe any of them. I think it's unreasonable for any Christian to claim that their biblical interpretation and theology are correct while insisting that other Christians are wrong, that the Bible is divinely inspired, and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. It is also irrational, in my opinion, that Christians seem to expect non-Christians to accept the Bible as divinely inspired and the final authority on moral issues, yet they can't agree on what the Bible says.
I see you have investigated differing Christian quite a bit. In my opinion, each Christian should forget sects or denominations and see for themselves, join a non-denominal church that supports this. I see a lot of churches in my area that have no denominational designation, though since I've never set foot in one, I can't say they support being able to see the Bible for themselves. One could see for yourself and not set foot in in a Church building, but most people need interaction with other people in a religious setting when they are religious themselves.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
i remember. I never flat out called you a liar.
If your memory is as sharp as your claims, you should have no trouble finding the exact quote.
On the other hand, if there is no truth to your claims, you wouldn't in a billion years be able to quote nPeace flat out calling you a liar.

I'm not interested in wasting my time, looking for a post from several months back. Sorry, I've got better things to do. I just told you how it went down.

You said it. I was taken aback by it, in fact. Because as far as I know, you don't have the ability to read my mind.

It's a simple thing Skeptic. Just prove your claim.
Here you are saying I haven't provide evidence. You haven't provided any proof of your assertions.
You first.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Kind of a tangent and I'm not getting drawn in to an evolution discussion on this thread but there are clear differences. The idea of common ancestors is built upon objective evidence for many of the underlying processes and biological mechanisms, and is a logical extension of that evidence. Not definitive but strongly supported. There is no objective evidence relating to anything about Biblical demons, and so that kind of hypothesis would need a whole load more underlying study to come close to a similar status.
As I said, they take circumstantial evidence, and call that objective evidence for their claim.
You are only saying that circumstantial evidence is build on objective evidence, which doesn't change what I said., but only tries to give it merit.
Then you follow that up with "There is no objective evidence relating to anything about Biblical demons".
I have no idea what you are saying there, with the phrase 'related to'. It's quite vague, and seems to be an attempt at dismissing the latter, without basis.

Please don't put words in my mouth (and you accuse me of strawman arguments!). I never insulted the Bible in that way.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I asked a simple question. You either answer it, or ignore it.
Since you ignored it, at least I know what I said, made the point.

Yes, typically with the intent of getting answers. You keep avoiding answering those questions though.
Those were questions? Well, gee... Whatever happened to question marks.

If. The problem is that you're claiming to have evidence that events are matching events depicted in scripture but you've not done that, not least because the scripture in question is so general, poetically worded and, of course, oft-translated, that you could spin it to fit pretty much any point in human history. Indeed, aren't there plenty of examples of people doing exactly that in the past?
Generally poetically worded?
I quoted no text that fits that strawman.

It isn't the same at all. The effects that led to the concept of dark matter have no known cause (just alternative hypotheses). The underlying concepts, logic and technical details have been deeply studied, tested and refined over the years and anyone can gain a level of understanding of it, depending on how much effort they're willing and able to put it. Even those scientists who don't support the idea understand it at that technical level.
I don't see how that's different. So, I think you need more than baseless assertions.

You don't have any of the with demons. The effects you've referred to have always existed to various extents, with mundane causes that are largely recognised and understood (if complex).
Clearly not.
Varying degrees of anything is expected, since there is nothing new under the sun, however, never before, for example, has there been a world war prior to 1914.

EVER since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.

“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War [World War I, which started in 1914] left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations - everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.”
- General Charles de Gaulle, speaking in 1968 (Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9)​

I gave you the information before. These are some of the effects I referred to. If you don't want to consider it, that's up to you, but so long as everyone knows what effects I referred to....

They don't require anything new to explain them.
No one has explained the underlying cause.
Of course, it's easy to speculate, and come up with various theories.

How did World War I start?
Experts continue to fiercely debate this question. Yes, the 1914 assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, triggered a series of declarations of war. But many scholars argue that a confluence of factors had been creating the conditions for conflict in Europe for decades prior. As the military historian Liddell Hart wrote, “Fifty years were spent in the process of making Europe explosive. Five days were enough to detonate it.”

This resource explores the factors that led to the outbreak of World War I and the ways in which the conflict reshaped society.


Anyone can do that.
However, claiming to know the root cause of something, when you really don't, while dismissing other explanation, is just letting off hot air, imo.

And unlike dark matter, which would still generally operate within the known mechanisms of the universe, the existence of "supernatural" demons would require a whole load of new underlying concepts and mechanisms to exist.
For whom? Are you saying that scientists are now investigating the supernatural?

Again, that is only true if you're treating those scriptures as factual and accurate (as per the interpretations you've been taught) and real world events actually match those scriptures.

I don't see how that supports your point. So natural events can impact Earths rotation, albeit in relatively tiny amounts. As the quotes you gave say though, the kind of natural events that have the biggest effect (the atmosphere and oceans) will have always happened, long before humans even existed. That would be the very opposite of a defined change in events that could indicate the influence of demons.
I'm not getting your point.

I didn't ask what the Bible says. You said it is a mystery to many but anyone can read the Bible. If people get different answers from the same text, how can you know your answer is the right one?
If people get different "answers"/interpretations from the same data, how can you know a particular answer is correct? That's my answer.

That is still not what I'm saying (strawman irony again). I'm not asking for simplification, I am asking for more detail and clarification. I've also not dismissed anything, I've only stated that I (like others apparently) don't find your argument anything like as convincing as you seem to imagine it to be.

In this context, your claim to be presenting evidence but outright refusing to present any kind of meaningful hypothesis, even in basic terms. We still don't know exactly what your evidence is meant to be evidence of.
I won't repeat what I said. You are making unnecessary circles. I don't believe changing that has anything to do with me.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
I'm not interested in wasting my time, looking for a post from several months back. Sorry, I've got better things to do. I just told you how it went down.

You said it. I was taken aback by it, in fact. Because as far as I know, you don't have the ability to read my mind.


You first.
So. "Your honor. I have no evidence of the accusations I made of this person. It's just my baseless claims, and everyone should believe me on my word. That's how truth is established... your honor."

Not only have you wasted your time posting empty assertions, but you want others to waste their time considering, or denying those unsupported claims. Smh

 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
So. "Your honor. I have no evidence of the accusations I made of this person. It's just my baseless claims, and everyone should believe me on my word. That's how truth is established... your honor."

Not only have you wasted your time posting empty assertions, but you want others to waste their time considering, or denying those unsupported claims. Smh


It's bad enough hitting your head against a brick. It's worst striking it against granite.

Be sure to let us know when you've got the evidence.
I want to believe as many true things as possible while not believing as many false things as possible.
In other words, I'm open to evidence for anything.


LOL. Sure you are.

Are you accusing me of dishonesty?
Did you change overnight?

Skepticthinker:

So yes, you're accusing me of dishonesty.

Well, I guess whatever you have to do to shirk your burden of proof, eh?




And don't forget you've just implied that I'm a liar in this thread as well, just a couple pages back.
You do this often.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
It's bad enough hitting your head against a brick. It's worst striking it against granite.

Be sure to let us know when you've got the evidence.
I want to believe as many true things as possible while not believing as many false things as possible.
In other words, I'm open to evidence for anything.

LOL. Sure you are.

Are you accusing me of dishonesty?
Did you change overnight?

Skepticthinker:

So yes, you're accusing me of dishonesty.

Well, I guess whatever you have to do to shirk your burden of proof, eh?



And don't forget you've just implied that I'm a liar in this thread as well, just a couple pages back.
You do this often.
Good. You brought forth something. See? I did not flat out call you a liar.
If you refer to that as "flat out called you a liar", then you flat out called others a liar. Yes?

For example, when you made your last statement in this thread "The Search For Truth", you flat out called me a liar. Yes?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Good. You brought forth something. See? I did not flat out call you a liar.
If you refer to that as "flat out called you a liar", then you flat out called others a liar. Yes?

For example, when you made your last statement in this thread "The Search For Truth", you flat out called me a liar. Yes?
You said I'm a liar. I proved it.

I asked you if you accusing me of dishonesty, to which you replied "Did you change overnight?"
You're telling me not only am I a liar, but an habitual one, at that.

Gimme a break with your little games.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You said I'm a liar. I proved it.

I asked you if you accusing me of dishonesty, to which you replied "Did you change overnight?"
You're telling me not only am I a liar, but an habitual one, at that.

Gimme a break with your little games.
I said you are a liar? :laughing: It's there for all to see... I did not. :)
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
As I said, they take circumstantial evidence, and call that objective evidence for their claim.
You are only saying that circumstantial evidence is build on objective evidence, which doesn't change what I said., but only tries to give it merit.
Evolution isn't a singular concept (nor is demons for that matter). There is objective evidence for various element and underlying principles of evolutionary theories. There isn't objective evidence for everything in that area, which is why it continues to be studied.

Then you follow that up with "There is no objective evidence relating to anything about Biblical demons".
I have no idea what you are saying there, with the phrase 'related to'. It's quite vague, and seems to be an attempt at dismissing the latter, without basis.
It's vague because the claim is vague. There isn't anything concrete to dismiss.

Those were questions? Well, gee... Whatever happened to question marks.
Yes, when people question your OP claims, they were asking questions, often with actual question marks.

The main questions I've asked have been "What is your hypothesis for the existence of Biblical demons?" and "What exactly are you saying you have evidence for?". You've repeatedly refused to answer either of them.

Varying degrees of anything is expected, since there is nothing new under the sun, however, never before, for example, has there been a world war prior to 1914.
Actually that is a debated point among historians, around both whether previous conflicts could be considered world wars or that WW1 really should be (especially when you look from outside the European/Western point of view). Regardless, it wasn't really as sudden a change as you're presenting it as, but just another step along the change and progress in the world. If anything, it would be WW2 that has the biggest impact, given how it led to the development of nuclear weapons.

The fact remains that it is perfectly viable and predictable that human society would develop in this direction. Horrific conflicts happened throughout human history, it was only the developing transport and communications technology that led to it expanding from local, regional, national and international. There is no need for, and therefore no reason to assume, any outside influence involved in any of this, even if you do see 1914 as a significant point inhuman history.

Anyone can do that.
However, claiming to know the root cause of something, when you really don't, while dismissing other explanation, is just letting off hot air, imo.
I'm not claiming to know, I'm just suggesting that there is no reason it wouldn't be a similar set of reasons to previous and subsequent conflicts. You're the one claiming to know there was a special cause for WW1 that didn't apply previously.

For whom? Are you saying that scientists are now investigating the supernatural?
No, scientists investigate evidence. None of that evidence has led to anything that would be commonly considered "supernatural" (and if it did, that thing wouldn't be "supernatural" any more, just "natural" :coo: ).

If people get different "answers"/interpretations from the same data, how can you know a particular answer is correct? That's my answer.
You don't. That is why you need a clear hypothesis and to present the evidence you believe supports it. That way, other people can review that evidence and review any additional evidence against the hypothesis.

I won't repeat what I said. You are making unnecessary circles. I don't believe changing that has anything to do with me.
I still don't want you to repeat anything, I want you to say more. Yet again;

What is your hypothesis for the existence of Biblical demons? What exactly are you saying you have evidence for?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I said, they take circumstantial evidence, and call that objective evidence for their claim.
You are only saying that circumstantial evidence is build on objective evidence, which doesn't change what I said., but only tries to give it merit.
Then you follow that up with "There is no objective evidence relating to anything about Biblical demons".
I have no idea what you are saying there, with the phrase 'related to'. It's quite vague, and seems to be an attempt at dismissing the latter, without basis..

I am not understanding your point about the difference between circumstantial evidence and objective evidence concerning the existence of Demons. The existence of Demons is based on an ancient understanding of their limited worldview. I do not even believe it is supported by circumstantial evidence. Belief in Demons is related to the belief in angels, souls, and spiritual realms beyond the physical and Gods. None of this is supported by objective evidence from an unbiased position.

I believe it is a fact that there is no objectively verifiable evidence that Demons existed in the past or now.
For whom? Are you saying that scientists are now investigating the supernatural?

Yes, there are some, but at present nothing concerning the supernatural has been falsifiable.
If people get different "answers"/interpretations from the same data, how can you know a particular answer is correct? That's my answer.

That is not a good response to provide a convincing argument beyond what you believe. Kind of circular to justify what you believe based on belief.
 
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