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Destined for Heaven?

Muffled

Jesus in me
Is anyone destined for Heaven?

Joh 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Does this mean that no one has ever gone to Heaven or is Jesus talking about something else?

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

Is this the reference that Jesus was making?

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Is this the ascension that Jesus was talking about?
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
From my understanding, Jesus descended from Heaven to earth, became a man and died for our sins. On the cross he told the Thief that on that very day he would be in Paradise with Jesus. Paradise was part of Sheol and was where the righteous dead went (like Lazarus in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus). So, he had not yet ascended to the Father, who is in Heaven and neither had any other, for they were in Paradise. When he ascended he took those in Paradise to Heaven and now we all go be with the Lord in Heaven when we die. He "receives our spirit" and we are "present with the Lord which is far better". I think his ascension was before the Acts 1:9 event, because that was either 40 or 50 days later (can't remember off hand), and he had his transformed body before that as he could appear in their midst and such. But I would have to check on that. That's what I believe anyway. Other people will believe different depending on what they have been taught.
 

drakonyx

Member
If one believes that God is omnipotent and omniscient, one must logically believe in predestination. If God knows about it ahead of time and has the power to change it, he becomes complicit and, indeed, causational (as the creator) in whatever takes place.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
All I know is you can't get to heaven in a Chevrolet, 'cause a Chevrolet don't go that way...

Just sayin'...
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
All I know is you can't get to heaven in a Chevrolet, 'cause a Chevrolet don't go that way...

Just sayin'...

Not even a GPS would help.

I take it you believe that Chevrolets were not predestined for Heaven, materially. I can take the memory of my chevy to Heaven.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
No

I believe the concept was borrowed for previous religions in the levant that were highly mythical.

I believe in UFO's.

If Heaven is a borrowed concept, then where is the statement that it was borrowed.

If it were borrowed then where did the concept originate?
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
One of the most comforting passages in the Bible is found in John 14:

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

In Thessalonians 4 is another comforting passage:

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
We are all more or less destined for Heaven. That doesn't mean we will all receive the same reward once there.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Is anyone destined for Heaven?

Joh 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Does this mean that no one has ever gone to Heaven or is Jesus talking about something else?

I would have to say yes. The term "ascended" [anabaino] is written in the perfect active indicative. This means the action was completed at a point of time in the past with results continuing into the present [at the time Christ spoke the words]. In some cases, the results are permanent [continuing on into the future], which I believe is the case with Jn 3:13. The ESV aptly puts it this way:

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.​

The verb "ascended" describes the actions of every one else. In other words, No one in the past, present or future [perfect active indicative] has ascended into heaven except Christ.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
No one in the past, present or future [perfect active indicative] has ascended into heaven except Christ.
What about Stephen?

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (Acts 7:55-56,59)

Jesus is in Heaven at the right hand of God preparing a place for us, that where I am, ye may be also (John 14 1:3). Jesus received Stephen's spirit to himself in Heaven, just as Paul said, We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better (Philippians 1:23)
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
What about Stephen?

_But he,_ being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and _saw_ the _glory of God_, and _Jesus standing on the right hand of God, _ And said, Behold, I see _the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God._ And they stoned Stephen, _ (Acts 7:55-56,59)

1. Stephen saw a vision of Christ before he died--not after.

_calling upon God_, and saying, _Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

2. Verse 60, which you left out, states: Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Notice

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep [like Stephen is currently] in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish​

Humans do not have immortal souls (Gen. 2:7; Ezek. 18:4, 20; Matt. 10:28; Rom. 6:23) At the end of a persons life, God returns his or her "unconscious"(Jas 2:26) human spirit to Himself. Hebrews 12:22-23 reveals that the God "of all spirits" (Num. 27:16), of all "just men made perfect," keeps all these spirits with Him. In it, He has preserved a complete, detailed record of all that pertained to that person's life. This is the plain teaching of scripture. Notice: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:23). The spirit, soul and body represent all that was the person. The personality, experiences, accumulated knowledge and character of each human being is reflected in the human spirit. This is why it returns to God at death. In summary, Stephen fell asleep (died) knowing that God would receive his spirit and it would reunite with him at the resurrection.

Jesus is in Heaven at the right hand of God preparing a place for us, that where_ I am_, _ye may be also_ (John 14 1:3).
Joh 14:2-3 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.​

3. The Greek term translated "place"and "mansions" [topon and topos respectively] can also mean postions of power, offices, or opportunity. Christ is currently in heaven preparing a place [position] in God's government which scripture reveals will be assign to the Saints at His coming.Those who overcome and keep His WORKS until the end [resurrected saints], will have power over the nations! (Rev 2:26). Christ is currently preparing positions of leadership for David (Ezek. 34:23-24; 37:24.), the twelve Apostles (Mt 19:28), Stephen, Paul and the rest of His resurrected Saints! (1Co 6:2-3) . Notice:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Jud 1:14-15 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

1Th 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.


And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

4. Christ will receive us AFTER his return--at the first resurrection!! After the resurrection, the saints will meet Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:17) and Zec 14:1-5 continues the story--Christ and the Saints will return to Mt Zion together to rule the world!:

Dan 7:18, But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.

Psa 37:34 Wait on the LORD, And keep His way, And He shall exalt you to inherit the land; When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.

Psa 45:16 Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons, Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.

Oba 1:21 Then Saviors [helpers] shall come to Mount Zion To judge the mountains of Esau, And the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

2Ti 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

1Co 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?​

There are many more passages implying the resurrected saints will not spend eternity in "heaven". They will be right here ruling and judging the inhabitants of the earth for 1,000 years! This is an essential part of the Gospel that Christ preached which many Protestants overlook!

Jesus received Stephen's spirit to himself in Heaven, just as Paul said, We are confident, I say, and willing rather _to be absent__ from the body, and to be present with the Lord_ (2 Cor. 5:8).

5. Read the verses in context carefully. Notice how Paul does not remotely imply a time reference between being absent from the body and being present with the LORD. He simply explains that Christians have two bodies: one physical (the first body), then a spirit body (at the resurrection). Paul was speaking of this spirit body, which comes later at the resurrection.

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire _to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better_ (Philippians 1:23)

6. Was Paul saying that he wished to die and immediately go to heaven? Be careful of assumptions. II Timothy 4:6-8 shows Paul knew he would have his reward "at that day" and at "His (Christ’s) appearing," rather than at death:

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing."​

When is "that day"? revelation 22:12 states, "behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man…"(see also I Thes. 4:16-17; I Cor. 15:52; Dan. 12:2-3). Christians do not die and go to heaven. They wait (in the grave) for Christ to return to this earth with their reward!
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Is anyone destined for Heaven?

Joh 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Does this mean that no one has ever gone to Heaven or is Jesus talking about something else?

Jesus was a firm believer in the hebrew scriptures which clearly state that when people die, they return to the dust and cease to exist. Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.


The idea that they go to heaven was not something ancient jews believed.... they may believe that nowdays, but Jesus certainly didnt and the hebrew scriptures speak about the death of the soul. So when Jesus said 'no man has ascended to heaven' he meant exactly that because mankind do not go to heaven when they die.

The apostle Peter also believed that the dead do not ascend to heaven because he spoke about King David and said:
"Actually David did not ascend to heaven....his tomb is among us to this very day..."
 
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