Destined for Heaven?

[james2ko]

Yeah, but they were a den of vipers anyway so they needed the rebuke. I agree that we should strive to imitate the Lord. I believe God corrects every believer and is making us more like Christ as we grow in grace. Ultimately we will be completely transformed incorruptible, immortal and glorified.

The problem is most believers do not or will not recognize it when it's given

 

[javajo]

The problem is most believers do not or will not recognize it when it's given

That's why it can get so painful. The more one resists and disobeys, the more pain and suffering. That's how God does it, pain and suffering and more pain and suffering. Then a little more on top of that. But the potter must pound the clay and put it through the furnace, like a sword heated and beaten on the anvil. The good thing is we can know we are his children when we feel his hand of correction.

 

[Hawkins]

Is anyone destined for Heaven?

Joh 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Does this mean that no one has ever gone to Heaven or is Jesus talking about something else?

No one makes his way to Heaven yet as we speak. The way to Heaven is however cleared by Jesus Christ. People will be there after the Final Judgment. Only those passing the Judgment are allowed to go into Heaven.

Most people are in Hades. They will be resurrected when the Final Judgment comes.

 

[Muffled]

I would have to say yes. The term "ascended" [anabaino] is written in the perfect active indicative. This means the action was completed at a point of time in the past with results continuing into the present [at the time Christ spoke the words]. In some cases, the results are permanent [continuing on into the future], which I believe is the case with Jn 3:13. The ESV aptly puts it this way:

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
​

The verb "ascended" describes the actions of every one else. In other words, No one in the past, present or future [perfect active indicative] has ascended into heaven except Christ.

Is the word "even" accurate? It changes the whole meaning of the verse from exclusive to Jesus to common to all who have had the same experience.

I believe that I descended from Heaven having previusly ascended and some day will ascend again.

 

[Muffled]

2. Verse 60, which you left out, states: Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Notice

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep [like Stephen is currently] in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish
​

Humans do not have immortal souls (Gen. 2:7; Ezek. 18:4, 20; Matt. 10:28; Rom. 6:23) At the end of a persons life, God returns his or her "unconscious"(Jas 2:26) human spirit to Himself. Hebrews 12:22-23 reveals that the God "of all spirits" (Num. 27:16), of all "just men made perfect," keeps all these spirits with Him. In it, He has preserved a complete, detailed record of all that pertained to that person's life. This is the plain teaching of scripture. Notice: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:23). The spirit, soul and body represent all that was the person. The personality, experiences, accumulated knowledge and character of each human being is reflected in the human spirit. This is why it returns to God at death. In summary, Stephen fell asleep (died) knowing that God would receive his spirit and it would reunite with him at the resurrection.

5. Read the verses in context carefully. Notice how Paul does not remotely imply a time reference between being absent from the body and being present with the LORD. He simply explains that Christians have two bodies: one physical (the first body), then a spirit body (at the resurrection). Paul was speaking of this spirit body, which comes later at the resurrection.

6. Was Paul saying that he wished to die and immediately go to heaven? Be careful of assumptions. II Timothy 4:6-8 shows Paul knew he would have his reward "at that day" and at "His (Christ’s) appearing," rather than at death:

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing."
​

3). Christians do not die and go to heaven. They wait (in the grave) for Christ to return to this earth with their reward![/quote]

A belief in sleep is not the same thing as the reality. It is not a proof that a spirit actually sleeps although it would seem logical if that is what the person believed in.
It would appear that Stephen believed that he would be with Jesus not that he would sleep. Stephen never mentions sleep in his prayer.

This is relative. When the Kingdom comes humans will have an immortal soul. I Cor. 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This verse says the body is dead not the spirit.

This appears to be a speculation on what Paul was referring. The lack of time specification does not rule out immediacy.

There is no doubt in my mind that Paul when referring to "that day" was referring to his day of departure.

I entered this life from Heaven and I have no intention of staying with the body when it dies. Who will prevent me from moving on?

 

[Muffled]

Jesus was a firm believer in the hebrew scriptures which clearly state that when people die, they return to the dust and cease to exist. Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.


The idea that they go to heaven was not something ancient jews believed.... they may believe that nowdays, but Jesus certainly didnt and the hebrew scriptures speak about the death of the soul. So when Jesus said 'no man has ascended to heaven' he meant exactly that because mankind do not go to heaven when they die.

The apostle Peter also believed that the dead do not ascend to heaven because he spoke about King David and said:
"Actually David did not ascend to heaven....his tomb is among us to this very day..."

This is what Jesus said: Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

 

[Pegg]

This is what Jesus said: Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

what sort of treasure can a person accumulate in heaven?

 

[Muffled]

what sort of treasure can a person accumulate in heaven?

The only thing that a person carries with him after death is his memories. The treasure is that of a good conscience. The money will pass away and the memory of having it only brings torment but having the opportunity to follow Jesus brings joy, peace and love which are comforting memories indeed.

 

[Walkntune]

All I know is you can't get to heaven in a Chevrolet, 'cause a Chevrolet don't go that way...

Just sayin'...

Your right... They all got together in one accord!

 

[Jethro]

Predestination is not biblical.

Paul taught predestination in Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Verse 30, "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?

Paul wrote in 9:12-13, "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:4-5, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will..."

Paul wrote in verse 11, "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will..."

So we can see that predestination is indeed biblical.

 

[Me Myself]

Predestination is not biblical.

Wasn´t everything written in the book of life since the begining of time or something like that?

Jesus knew that Peter would negate him thrice. That is called divination, that if infalible, it can only come with some form of predestination

 

[e.r.m.]

Wasn´t everything written in the book of life since the begining of time or something like that?

Jesus knew that Peter would negate him thrice. That is called divination, that if infalible, it can only come with some form of predestination

I think it would be good to start with a good thorough definition of predestination. I'm sure people believe in different degrees of predestination.

 

[Pegg]

The only thing that a person carries with him after death is his memories. The treasure is that of a good conscience. The money will pass away and the memory of having it only brings torment but having the opportunity to follow Jesus brings joy, peace and love which are comforting memories indeed.

the bible doesnt teach that we are conscious after we die...it teaches the opposite:
Ecclesiastes 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, ...6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished..."

 

[Awoon]

Jesus descended from heaven into a vagina. So that's the route back?

 

[Muffled]

the bible doesnt teach that we are conscious after we die...it teaches the opposite:
Ecclesiastes 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, ...6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished..."

That was the belief of Solomon and most people at the time but it is not the reality that God espouses.

 

[Pegg]

That was the belief of Solomon and most people at the time but it is not the reality that God espouses.

So you dont take the writings of Solomon as legitimate then?


They are not out of harmony with the rest of the bible....Gods word hasnt changed. The only thing that has changed is the teachings of man. The hebrews did not believe in life after death....they believed in resurrection after death.

 

[james2ko]

Is the word "even" accurate? It changes the whole meaning of the verse from exclusive to Jesus to common to all who have had the same experience.

I believe that I descended from Heaven having previusly ascended and some day will ascend again.

You can believe whatever you wish. As for me and my family, we'll choose to believe what the bible teaches.

 

[james2ko]

A belief in sleep is not the same thing as the reality. It is not a proof that a spirit actually sleeps although it would seem logical if that is what the person believed in. It would appear that Stephen believed that he would be with Jesus not that he would sleep. Stephen never mentions sleep in his prayer.

1. It is irrelevant whether Stephen mentioned the word or not. God inspired Luke to include the word "sleep". Therefore it must be taken into account when performing exegesis.

This is relative. When the Kingdom comes humans will have an immortal soul. I Cor. 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2. What need is there for a resurrection if all the spirits of those Christians who's bodies are dead and buried are already conscious, alive and well in heaven? They have to give up their heavenly existence (some for thousands of years) to come back to earth and be joined with a "different" immortal body??? Completely illogical.

What does make sense to me is that our current physcial body and human spirit are interdependent. One cannot function without the other. Similar to how a dvd player cannot properly function without a dvd. At the resurrection, God will bring together the "unconscious human spirit" the apostle James alludes to in 2:26, along with the Holy Spirit, and reunite them with the Christian's new immortal body.

This verse says the body is dead not the spirit.

3. Then this means works without faith is NOT dead or acceptable to God??? In this passage, James uses a comparative analogy to describe the state of the body without the spirit as being dead, just as faith without works is also dead. The words in a comparative analogy can be transposed without changing the analogy's meaning. So the verse could theoretically read: 'As the spirit without the body is dead so works without faith is also dead'. Think about it. If the spirit were alive without the body, then works without faith is also "alive" or acceptable to God which we know it is not the case. Let the bible interpret itself. Don't let others deceive you into believing a false concept.

This appears to be a speculation on what Paul was referring. The lack of time specification does not rule out immediacy.

4. It's not speculation. It is truth based on the evidence presented throughout scripture. Humans do not possess an immortal soul. This false idea was dreamed up by Pagan philosophers and adopted by mainstream Christianity.

 

[Rathus]

Predestination is not biblical.

Of course it is. The New Testament speaks of predestination in many places. Yet it teaches it most clearly in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:3-6.

If predestination were not "biblical" then I doubt you'd find it mentioned in scripture.

 

[Katzpur]

Of course it is. The New Testament speaks of predestination in many places. Yet it teaches it most clearly in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:3-6.

If predestination were not "biblical" then I doubt you'd find it mentioned in scripture.

Rathus, could you explain in your own words exactly what you believe the word "predestination" to mean. Does it cancel out our freedom to choose? Does it mean that no matter what certain people may believe or how they may live their lives, they will automatically be saved? Do you believe that the reverse is true -- that some are predestined for damnation? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. It's just that I don't personally believe in predestination (although I do believe in what I would call foreordination), so I'm just trying to get my head around the idea that God would have taken away certain people's freedom to choose for themselves, while allowing other people that right. Maybe I just don't understand the doctrine the way you do.