Destined for Heaven?

[Katzpur]

So when Jesus said 'no man has ascended to heaven' he meant exactly that because mankind do not go to heaven when they die.

There's a huge difference between "no man has ascended..." and "no man will ever ascend..." Of course no man had ascended to Heaven at the time Jesus made that statement. He -- "the firstfruits of them that slept" -- had not been killed or resurrected at that point. He never, ever, ever indicated that no one would ever ascend to Heaven.

 

[Awoon]

No man ascended into heaven before the Russian cosmonaut.

 

[Pegg]

There's a huge difference between "no man has ascended..." and "no man will ever ascend..." Of course no man had ascended to Heaven at the time Jesus made that statement. He -- "the firstfruits of them that slept" -- had not been killed or resurrected at that point. He never, ever, ever indicated that no one would ever ascend to Heaven.

of course some will go to heaven, the scriptures tell us they certainly will.

But the scriptures also put a limited number on how many will go according to Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending...3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel
Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

Revelation 14:3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne... and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.


The rest of mankind will live on earth according to Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it
And according to Jesus words at John 10:16 16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; The 'fold' Jesus was talking to were his apostles, those 144,000 who are chosen for the heavenly kingdom. The 'other sheep' are the ones who are from among the nations who will be separated as state at Matthew 25:32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left

 

[Katzpur]

And according to Jesus words at John 10:16 16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; The 'fold' Jesus was talking to were his apostles, those 144,000 who are chosen for the heavenly kingdom. The 'other sheep' are the ones who are from among the nations who will be separated as state at Matthew 25:32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left

Wow! That's one point we don't see eye to eye on, but seeing as a debate would take us wayyyyy off-topic, I'll resist the temptation.

 

[james2ko]

of course some will go to heaven, the scriptures tell us they certainly will.

But the scriptures also put a limited number on how many will go according to Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending...3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel

Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.Revelation 14:3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne... and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

1. This event occurs immediately AFTER the first resurrection but before the outpouring of the seven last plagues. It is actually part of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which John briefly describes in Rev 19:7-9. And yes it does take place in heaven but other scriptures indicate this is not Christ and the saint's final dwelling place. I Thess 4:17 tells us we will be caught up with Christ at His return; attend the marriage supper; after the supper and the witnessing of the outpouring of the seven last plagues (Rev 14:10), scripture tells us Christ and the Saints will descend to the Mount of Olives as evidenced in point 3 and 4 here and begin their millennial reign with the few human survivors who are left (Isa 24:5-6).

The rest of mankind will live on earth according to Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it

2. This refers to the environment of the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13; Rev 21:3-4, Rev 21:7) which occurs after the millennium. In the new heavens and earth, there will be no flesh and blood--only righteous spirit beings will inhabit the earth. During the millennium, Christ and the Saints will be ruling over fleshly human beings (Isa 24:5-6; 30:20-21). And as long as there is flesh and blood, there will always be sin [unrighteousness] in some way, shape, or form.

And according to Jesus words at John 10:16 16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; The 'fold' Jesus was talking to were his apostles, those 144,000 who are chosen for the heavenly kingdom.

3. I was taught the other sheep, in this context, were the other tribes of Israel which Christ referred to as the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 10:6).

The 'other sheep' are the ones who are from among the nations who will be separated as state at Matthew 25:32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left

4. Read the parable carefully. Christ uses a metaphor to explain the separation of true righteous Christians (sheep) from nominal Christians (goats)--not unbelievers. Before Christ can impute sin and condemnation on anyone, they have to know what sin is (Rom 5:13). 1 Jn 3:4 tells us sin is the transgression of God's law. True Christians-- who should know God's law--are being judged in this life/age (1 Pet 4:17) so it would be appropriate for Christ, at His return, to sentence those true Christians who are still alive, but unprofitable or asleep at the wheel, to condemnation. This is made plain in the parables that immediately precede the sheep and goats (ten virgins and talents) as well as the parable of the wheat and tares.

 

[javajo]

it would be appropriate for Christ...to sentence true Christians...to condemnation.

Alrighty then.

 

[james2ko]

Alrighty then.

Whenever I can reduce someone's response to just two words, I consider it a victory

 

[javajo]

Whenever I can reduce someone's response to just two words, I consider it a victory

Whenever someone says Jesus will condemn true believers, I am left a bit speechless.

 

[james2ko]

Whenever someone says Jesus will condemn true believers, I am left a bit speechless.

Well that's what happens when one cherry picks, rips sentences out of context, and abandon critical thinking.

 

[javajo]

Well that's what happens when one cherry picks, rips sentences out of context, and abandon critical thinking.

Very funny. Still, I believe all who have trusted Christ are saved to the uttermost and will not come into condemnation but are passed from death to life.

 

[james2ko]

Very funny. Still, I believe all who have trusted Christ are saved to the uttermost and will not come into condemnation but are passed from death to life.

Let me see if I understand this reasoning: If someone trusted Christ, for say, the first half of their life and fell away the second half and died? Are they condemned or will God grant them eternal life in the first resurrection. In other words, save them?

 

[javajo]

Let me see if I understand this reasoning: If someone trusted Christ, for say, the first half of their life and fell away the second half and died? Are they condemned or will God grant them eternal life in the first resurrection. In other words, save them?

Depends on who they are trusting to save them. I they are trusting in themselves to save themselves they're in trouble. But if they placed their trust in Christ to save them they are on solid ground. While every Christian has times of weakness and doubt, the Bible says God keeps us and will complete the work he started in us, so, I don't know if I've ever really seen such a scenario as yours. Hebrews 10:14 says, For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are being made holy.

 

[james2ko]

Depends on who they are trusting to save them. If they are trusting in themselves to save themselves they're in trouble. But if they placed their trust in Christ to save them they are on solid ground. While every Christian has times of weakness and doubt,

1. I appreciate the explanation but you didn't quite answer the question. Would he or she be condemned or will they be given eternal life in the first resurrection? It's not an open question. It is a multiple choice--saved or condemned. It's either or-- there is no in between, according to your belief, right?

the Bible says God keeps us and will complete the work he started in us,

2. Even if we start out faithful and later turn defiant and embrace Atheism?

So I don't know if I've ever really seen such a scenario as yours. .

3. Are you implying since you have not seen or experienced the scenario presented it does not exist or it cannot happen?

Hebrews 10:14 says, For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are being made holy

4. This refers to sanctification [made holy]. We are discussing justification. Huge difference between the two.

 

[javajo]

1. I appreciate the explanation but you didn't quite answer the question. Would he or she be condemned or will they be given eternal life in the first resurrection? It's not an open question. It is a multiple choice--saved or condemned. It's either or-- there is no in between, according to your belief, right?

Those who have trusted Christ, God promises to keep.

2. Even if we start out faithful and later turn defiant and embrace Atheism?

While people may go through periods of doubt and even defiance, I believe God is both the Author and Finisher of our faith. I believe God does the saving and God does the keeping, we don't save or keep ourselves.

3. Are you implying since you have not seen or experienced the scenario presented it does not exist or it cannot happen?

I do not believe God could ever lose one of his own. He always finishes what he has begun in us.

4. This refers to sanctification [made holy]. We are discussing justification. Huge difference between the two.

For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are being made holy. I was referring to the underlined, not to sanctification. When God saves a person, he saves them to the uttermost, forever, they have eternal life and will not come back into condemnation.

 

[james2ko]

Those who have trusted Christ, God promises to keep.

While people may go through periods of doubt and even defiance, I believe God is both the Author and Finisher of our faith. I believe God does the saving and God does the keeping, we don't save or keep ourselves.

I do not believe God could ever lose one of his own. He always finishes what he has begun in us.

For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are being made holy. I was referring to the underlined, not to sanctification. When God saves a person, he saves them to the uttermost, forever, they have eternal life and will not come back into condemnation.

So where does this fit in to your "once saved always saved" theology?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

 

[javajo]

So where does this fit in to your "once saved always saved" theology?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

I do not use that expression. I prefer the Eternal Security of the Believer. I believe this is speaking of the sin of unbelief. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (10:39)

 

[james2ko]

I do not use that expression. I prefer the Eternal Security of the Believer. I believe this is speaking of the sin of unbelief. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (10:39)

Oh I see, the usual denial of the plain text and mental gymnastics...:sad:

 

[javajo]

Oh I see, the usual denial of the plain text and mental gymnastics...:sad:

You're too kind. I respect your beliefs, too.

 

[james2ko]

You're too kind. I respect your beliefs, too.

Hey that was much nicer than they way our LORD--the one who we should strive to imitate--addressed the Scribes and Pharisees, right?

 

[javajo]

Hey that was much nicer than they way our LORD--the one who we should strive to imitate--addressed the Scribes and Pharisees, right?

Yeah, but they were a den of vipers anyway so they needed the rebuke. I agree that we should strive to imitate the Lord. I believe God corrects every believer and is making us more like Christ as we grow in grace. Ultimately we will be completely transformed incorruptible, immortal and glorified.