Determining the Validity of a Prophecy

[Tiberius]

You cant find evidence for something that you have read or heard of - if you cant understand the words.
Never will.

Of course, this makes it impossible to tell the difference between something that exists but we have never heard of, and something that is just a bunch of nonsense.

Same with prophecies. They are witnessed in a present moment. Not in the past or future.

Irrelevant. If something happens, it will leave behind evidence.

If the Israelites left Egypt and deprived Egypt of its workforce, then that would have had drastic consequences.

Can you please show me a few prophecies that sound absolutely impossible. Some real crazy sounding stuff?
Then I will try to have a look at them to see if I can show you how they are possible and can be tested/witnessed by anyone and verified.

Try Nostradamus. Do any of his prophecies meet the five criteria I've listed?

The philosophers stone is real. I could show it to you if you want to see how it works.
The philosophers stone is also evidence of the exodus out of Egypt.
It fulfills prophecies.

Please tell me exactly what you mean by "Philosopher's Stone," and then demonstrate to me that it exists in reality.

Would you like to see the sword that's pulled from the philosophers stone?
It can turn other peoples swords into dust.

This will be good. Yes please, show me this sword.

 

[Tiberius]

But that’s just the point.....I don’t have to...and neither does God.

You need faith to believe in God. Evidence for his existence is all around you, but you give credit to other forces. That is your prerogative.

If you haven’t got the qualifications, you don’t get the job.....it’s really that simple.

Then what's to stop some random person from coming, making up whatever nonsense he wants, and you believing it?

 

[sayak83]

I gotta disagree. A prediction would be something like, "If I launch this projectile at this angle, at such-and-such a speed, and taking into account atmospheric drag, windspeed and the Earth's rotation, I can predict that the projectile will land at these specific coordinates."

Yet we would never call that a prophecy.

Here,
You said predictions are like If I do X (launch this way) then Y happens (projectile hits at this place and time). I was saying not all predictions are like this.

 

[Tiberius]

Here,
You said predictions are like If I do X (launch this way) then Y happens (projectile hits at this place and time). I was saying not all predictions are like this.

Can you give an example of a prediction that is NOT based on some understanding of the initial conditions and the science involved?

 

[sayak83]

Can you give an example of a prediction that is NOT based on some understanding of the initial conditions and the science involved?

Of course every prediction is like that. What I am saying is that prophesy is a prediction whose mechanism of prediction is kept vague.

 

[Tiberius]

Of course every prediction is like that. What I am saying is that prophesy is a prediction whose mechanism of prediction is kept vague.

So, let me get this straight.

I say that prophecies and predictions are two different things, and give an example of something that I classify as a prediction, not a prophecy in order to illustrate the difference.

You claim that not all predictions are like that.

I ask for an example of a prediction that is not like that.

You say prophecy.

That seems like you're agreeing with me, just with extra steps.

OF COURSE I know that a prophecy is different to a prediction! That's why I classified them as two entirely separate things! It makes no sense for you to claim they are the same thing and then turn around and describe how they are different.

 

[sayak83]

So, let me get this straight.

I say that prophecies and predictions are two different things, and give an example of something that I classify as a prediction, not a prophecy in order to illustrate the difference.

You claim that not all predictions are like that.

I ask for an example of a prediction that is not like that.

You say prophecy.

That seems like you're agreeing with me, just with extra steps.

OF COURSE I know that a prophecy is different to a prediction! That's why I classified them as two entirely separate things! It makes no sense for you to claim they are the same thing and then turn around and describe how they are different.

I am saying that the validity of a prophecy should be assessed similar to how predictions are validated, even if the mechanism by which prophesies are made is vague.

 

[Tiberius]

I am saying that the validity of a prophecy should be assessed similar to how predictions are validated, even if the mechanism by which prophesies are made is vague.

And you'll see that NONE of the criteria have anything to do with how the prophecy is made, only with what it says and how we determine if the prophecy accurately describes reality.

You also clearly claimed, "prophesy is a prediction whose mechanism of prediction is kept vague." The key part being, "prophecy is a prediction." Not LIKE a prediction, not SIMILAR TO a prediction, but IS a prediction.

In any case, the criteria I've listed here don't neatly correspond exactly to the criteria that would apply if we were trying to check the validity of predictions. For example, Point 1 is not relevant. I could make the prediction that if I drop a weight in a vacuum, it will fall with an acceleration of 9.8 meters per second squared and thus determine how long it would take to hit the ground if dropped from a certain height. But if Point 1 applied to this prediction, you could say, "That's not a valid prediction, of course the weight was going to fall like that!"

I can also use the laws of gravity to determine things about how the weight fell even if it has already been dropped. I can say, "The weight was dropped at such and such a height, and the air density was this particular value, so the weight would have fallen at this rate and thus impacted the ground after this length of time, and with this much force." That analysis doesn't change whether it is done before or after.

Point four also doesn't seem to really apply. I can't make an incorrect prediction, drop the weight and then somehow make gravity pull the weight faster in order to make the weight fall the way I predicted.

And predictions like this are pretty much never made with the same kind of metaphor-rich flowery language that prophecy seems to contain so often, so Point 5 doesn't really apply either.

The only criteria that comes close to being applicable is point 3, and we can easily measure things to see if the prediction measures reality. This kind of examination, using measurements of the real world to verify a theory, is one of the foundations of the scientific method.

 

[Brian2]

What's the connection between Abraham sacrificing his second born and God's first born? Nothing, so no prophecy there.

Isaac was appointed to be the firstborn, the one to inherit, and in this case the child of the promise, the one God promised to Abraham through his wife Isaac the one to inherit the promises of God.
Jesus also, even though not the first human, is the one who is the Son of God and who was appointed to he the firstborn, the one over the creation and the promised child, the Messiah, the one to inherit everything.

 

[Brian2]

It never occurs to people that Jesus dying and rising in 3 days was originally a pagan worship ritual based on the sun (Son) dying Dec 21 and rising on the 25th that got incorporated into the Jesus mythology because Jewish religious practices were absorbing all sorts of beliefs from a variety of other religions. This is called syncretism. The 3-day dying/rising is all over the Bible. Jonah "died" when he was swallowed by the whale. He was "dead" 3 days inside the whale. He "rose" when the whale spit him out.

.................................

Brian, do you think it's an accident that hundreds of verses in the Bible use 3 days?

I don't see the 3 days of Jesus death in most of the 3 day scriptures you gave but I can in the ones I gave.
Are you saying that the Jews incorporated 3 days into some stories in the Bible because they knew of Sol and wanted a Messiah who rose from the dead after 3 days?

 

[Brian2]

Or maybe it is based upon this myth.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

If you do some research you will no doubt find out that most of the myths about plagiarism of the gospel writers from myths about god/men of the past is not true.
You can start here if you like.
Was Christ a Copycat?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I don't see the 3 days of Jesus death in most of the 3 day scriptures you gave but I can in the ones I gave.
Are you saying that the Jews incorporated 3 days into some stories in the Bible because they knew of Sol and wanted a Messiah who rose from the dead after 3 days?

I was trying to point out the importance of gemantria in Jewish culture and why the number 3 figures so prominently in OT tales. So it's not surprising the gospel writers chose 3 days and 3 nights for Jesus-- mimicking the 3 days and 3 nights the sun "dies" and "rises" on Dec 21-25.

 

[night912]

The bible discussed false prophets. It also relies on true prophets.

Revelation (a chapter of the bible) was the prophecy of St. John the Divine (it says that if we attack Babylon, Iraq, God will make seven plagues (Revelation 15), including COVID, economic disaster, etc). We will be called the Whore of Babylon if we defeat Iraq and occupy it (altering its elections to make sure that it isn't anti-American, corrupting it with rapes, etc). Our presidents will be known as the Dragon and the Beast.

The bible, itself, would not exist without prophets. The bible was written over 100 years after the death of apostles and Jesus by divine psychic ability. These prophets were no longer around to talk about Jesus.

As President W. Bush got ready to attack Iraq, God send divine messages to the most powerful psychics on earth. The messages were exactly the same as Revelation. No one heeded God's prophets, and everyone allowed the president to defy God and kill Iraqis (remember.....thou shalt not kill and turn the other cheek).

The fact that the modern psychics of God said exactly the same thing as St. John the Divine, meant that the modern psychics were true psychics (because they agree with the bible).

Revelation, though ridiculous when it was written (many hundreds of years ago), came true in every way. It was ridiculous, for example, for a coalition of many nations to be made in mere hours before the era of modern communication....but that is exactly what happened. It was ridiculous to think of tanks spewing fire, but that is exactly what the bible predicted, and that came true in every way.

NOT OPEN TO INTERPRETATION:

I strongly disagree....psychic information (ESP) almost always must be interpreted. This is because it must be interpreted by a human brain that is wired to accept visual and aural information. But, psychic information is not visual nor aural. It comes into the brain in other ways, and must be interpreted by the brain in the only way that the brain can process it (using visual or aural parts of the brain). So, a psychic might see seven candles, but the psychic is able to interpret that as seven churches because they have been accustomed to viewing it that way.

This is why Revelation of the bible is written the way it is. Revelation is also interpreted by other pages of Revelation (like Revelation 17:18 (discussing the United States which is the Whore of Babylon): "And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth)." The Whore of Babylon, of course, is the country that fought Iraq twice (once by the Dragon, and once by the Beast, his son). The Whore of Babylon is the country that was known for excessive wealth (especially pearl necklaces like the simple pearl necklace that Barbara Bush used to brag about). The Whore of Babylon was known for sexual misconduct, like the sex scandal of Bill Clinton and Monica, or the even worse sex scandal of President George H. W. Bush and Jennifer Fitzgerald.

Upon first reading, the meaning of Revelation is obscure, but further reading explains what was meant in earlier passages, so that, eventually, the meaning of Revelation becomes crystal clear.

When God sent modern revelations to modern psychics, he picked the best psychics in the world. Some had been working with the Central Intelligence Agency to locate Soviet submarines. Some were connected to the Association of Research and Enlightenment (Edgar Cayce started this organization of psychics). Many of God's psychics got together on the internet, in forums, and many knew of each other's screen names (psychically) before they met on the internet (so they knew each other's screen names before they met). They also traveled to each other's homes by astral projection and had nice visits. They also played psychic games with each other (holding up fingers and asking the other to count their fingers, though they could not see them and they were thousands of miles away).

The modern psychics of God warned not to attack Iraq, but no one listened to them. They were the last chance of God to save humanity from the end times that we currently are in. God tried....humans thought they were smarter than God.

Of course, any rational person looking at this "prophecy" objectively, would think that it's ridiculous when a religious person claim that the American-Iraqi war fulfilled it. First, the most clear and obvious reason is, the city of Babylon, as described, did not exist during the time of that war. Second, Iraq is not the city of Babylon. Eventhough the ruins of the city of Babylon is located in Iraq, it was Iraq, and not Babylon, that the US invaded. And lastly, you're seeing and connecting dots when there are none. A lot of times people do this subconsciously because they need/want assurance that their beliefs are true. Whenever there's a conflict, you add, remove and/or twist words around in order to make look coherent to you, but it's actually illogical.

NOT OPEN TO INTERPRETATION:

I strongly disagree....psychic information (ESP) almost always must be interpreted. This is because it must be interpreted by a human brain that is wired to accept visual and aural information. But, psychic information is not visual nor aural. It comes into the brain in other ways, and must be interpreted by the brain in the only way that the brain can process it (using visual or aural parts of the brain). So, a psychic might see seven candles, but the psychic is able to interpret that as seven churches because they have been accustomed to viewing it that way.

This is why Revelation of the bible is written the way it is. Revelation is also interpreted by other pages of Revelation

Like here. You try to rationalize it in order to fit what you believe and as such, to you it's a rational explanation. But to someone looking at it objectively, it's totally irrational. When people see things that they don't know what it is, the brain will interpret it by connecting it with things that the brain presently recognize and understand. Subconsciously, the brain interpret it as is, but the individual will consciously interpret it as they want it to be. Using your candle example, the psychic sees seven candles. Being rational and unbiased, if that psychic knows what a candle is, he will just relay it back as seven candles. But for you, being biased and wanting your beliefs to be true and have meaning, you've interpreted it as seven churches. It's irrational to have seen something that you recognize and then relay it back to others and something totally different.

 

[night912]

Isaac was appointed to be the firstborn, the one to inherit, and in this case the child of the promise, the one God promised to Abraham through his wife Isaac the one to inherit the promises of God.
Jesus also, even though not the first human, is the one who is the Son of God and who was appointed to he the firstborn, the one over the creation and the promised child, the Messiah, the one to inherit everything.

Isaac was Abraham's heir, not his first born, but Jesus was God's first and only son. One would have to change a few things in order for Jesus to fit the prophecy. Besides, Abraham never sacrificed Isaac

 

[Trailblazer]

If you do some research you will no doubt find out that most of the myths about plagiarism of the gospel writers from myths about god/men of the past is not true.
You can start here if you like.
Was Christ a Copycat?

I do not believe there was plagiarism of the gospels, nor do I believe that the 'stories' about Jesus rising from the dead are true stories. I do not know how they came to be written sounding as if they are true; any novelist can write a story that 'sounds true' but that does not mean it is true. Nobody can EVER prove that Jesus rise from the dead but if people choose to believe that that is their prerogative. It does not matter to me one way or another of Jesus rise from the dead, because a body is just a body and it is completely insignificant.....

Whether Jesus rose from the dead or not would not change anything Jesus did that really matters, revealing God to us, and His teachings about how we are to live our lives, and what He did for us when He died on the cross.
As Jesus said, that which is born of the spirit is what really matters, not fleshy bodies.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Glorifying of the physical body of Jesus as Christians have done runs completely contrary to what Jesus taught and that is one way we know that the stories that were written about a physical body rising from a grave did not come from those who knew Jesus, because Jesus would not tell His disciples to write such stories nor would His disciples make up stories.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Try Nostradamus. Do any of his prophecies meet the five criteria I've listed?

Ok. I've now had a look at the writings of Nostradamus.
No. They do not meet the five criteria.

He compares himself with the prophets of the bible. He is influenced by them.

Perhaps his prophecies might be summed up in his own words in the letter to Henry II:
"simply by the Holy Scriptures, as best my weak understanding and astronomical calculations can interpret them".

I see his words do not contain the specific sentence pattern sequence like prophets in the bible and elsewhere.
There are "prophecies" in the bible that do meet your five criteria. The Lion eating Straw with the Ox as an example. It has the detailed specific sentence pattern that fits other scripture.

Please tell me exactly what you mean by "Philosopher's Stone," and then demonstrate to me that it exists in reality.

It is simply the heart of the philosopher:

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 7:12

The prophets repeat the law in many ways. Often overlapping the different ways and weaving them together. The law of metals is one of the ways.

(Have you ever heard about having a heart of gold?)

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23

This will be good. Yes please, show me this sword.

The words of the prophets overlap when one word fits in the same position of another word.

Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3:

Brass - Silver - Gold
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble


As in the detail of this prophecy that some say it is about Jesus turning his enemies into dust:

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2



So by following the words of the prophets then Swords turn into Dust, Bows turn into Stubble, and Spears turn into Straw. That can be tested and verified.

And the words Lion and Ox will both be found in the position of Straw.


Are you beginning to understand what i am showing?
I could go into a lot more detail to show these things.

 

[Tiberius]

Ok. I've now had a look at the writings of Nostradamus.
No. They do not meet the five criteria.

He compares himself with the prophets of the bible. He is influenced by them.

Perhaps his prophecies might be summed up in his own words in the letter to Henry II:
"simply by the Holy Scriptures, as best my weak understanding and astronomical calculations can interpret them".

I see his words do not contain the specific sentence pattern sequence like prophets in the bible and elsewhere.
There are "prophecies" in the bible that do meet your five criteria. The Lion eating Straw with the Ox as an example. It has the detailed specific sentence pattern that fits other scripture.

That does not show that any prophecy in the Bible meets my five criteria.

It is simply the heart of the philosopher:

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 7:12

The prophets repeat the law in many ways. Often overlapping the different ways and weaving them together. The law of metals is one of the ways.

(Have you ever heard about having a heart of gold?)

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23

That's about as good as "and it turns out the real treasure was friendship" nonsense you see in cheesy stories.

The words of the prophets overlap when one word fits in the same position of another word.

Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3:

Brass - Silver - Gold
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble


As in the detail of this prophecy that some say it is about Jesus turning his enemies into dust:

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2



So by following the words of the prophets then Swords turn into Dust, Bows turn into Stubble, and Spears turn into Straw. That can be tested and verified.

And the words Lion and Ox will both be found in the position of Straw.


Are you beginning to understand what i am showing?
I could go into a lot more detail to show these things.

I have a replica sword in my loungeroom. Please the sword you just demonstrated to turn my replica sword into dust. Is one week long enough for you to perform this feat? Or would you like to admit now that you have nothing but word games?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

That does not show that any prophecy in the Bible meets my five criteria.




That's about as good as "and it turns out the real treasure was friendship" nonsense you see in cheesy stories.



I have a replica sword in my loungeroom. Please the sword you just demonstrated to turn my replica sword into dust. Is one week long enough for you to perform this feat? Or would you like to admit now that you have nothing but word games?

According to the bible this is the law of metals which the Lord commanded Moses.

The order shows highest to lowest:

Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, Numbers 31:22


So turning Lead into Gold would be making lowest into highest.
Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold


Brass, Silver, Gold are actually heavens, and Iron is the Earth.
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23

Everything on Earth is Iron. So their gold and silver is rusty as the "prophecy" says:
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3


Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Matthew 6:19

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Matthew 6:20



The earth and the heavens is the treasury of the Lord:
But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 6:19



For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron: 1 Kings 8:51

As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Ezekiel 22:20

As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the Lord have poured out my fury upon you. Ezekiel 22:22



We are still in Egypt. Bound in Iron.

For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. Exodus 19:2

This is where Moses went:
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold.
Earth - Desert - Wilderness - Mount

 

[Tiberius]

According to the bible this is the law of metals which the Lord commanded Moses.

The order shows highest to lowest:

Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, Numbers 31:22


So turning Lead into Gold would be making lowest into highest.
Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold


Brass, Silver, Gold are actually heavens, and Iron is the Earth.
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23

Everything on Earth is Iron. So their gold and silver is rusty as the "prophecy" says:
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3


Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Matthew 6:19

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Matthew 6:20



The earth and the heavens is the treasury of the Lord:
But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 6:19



For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron: 1 Kings 8:51

As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Ezekiel 22:20

As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the Lord have poured out my fury upon you. Ezekiel 22:22



We are still in Egypt. Bound in Iron.

For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. Exodus 19:2

This is where Moses went:
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold.
Earth - Desert - Wilderness - Mount

I don't know what you're going on about here, but the sword in my lounge room is still intact. I'm waiting for you to use your sword to turn it into dust, as you claimed you could.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I don't know what you're going on about here, but the sword in my lounge room is still intact. I'm waiting for you to use your sword to turn it into dust, as you claimed you could.

So why don't you know what I'm going on about?
Are you listening?

I further explained with more detail about turning lead into gold, and the exodus through the heavens.

I have not mentioned the object in your lounge room. You are talking about your own interpretation.



In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion. Jeremiah 2:30




I'm talking about comprehension.

We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations 5:9


This is my sword:

Brass - Silver - Gold
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Moon - Star - Sun


The sword is a heaven called Eden.


Perhaps now you might see that the sword could be a star in a fixed position which is not even mentioned in this verse:


The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11


Determining the validity of a prophecy.