devil worshipping a sign of mental illness?

[Caladan]

Let me just say that Satan does play a very major role in my practice, but I am definitely not an inverted Christian, or an angsty teen. I am a fan of freedom. Plain and simple.

The Satan of the Hebrew scriptures has not an a seed of commonality with freedom. he does business with the Lord, and takes his role or rather career very seriously. in fact you could say, that in Judaism, Satan has not a single moment of rest. or one free moment to sit down and enjoy a cup of hot tea.
He is a tester of men. a political rival. an attorney in the name of the Lord of the Hebrews, and one who has a clearance to enter the Court of God, and discuss results with the Lord.

So in effect, what you are playing with in your philosophical endeavours is the Christian devil- the twisted and flawed version of the Hebrew Satan.
who in Christian doctrine has come to embody all the failures of men. and serve as an anti thesis to the judgement of the lord.
you could say in effect. that the Christians have been caught in a fateful game of their own creation. on one side always persecuted by their devil, and on the other end of the road, their god is waiting to crush them with his club to smite them upside their head for failing to resist the temptation.

I am one of those LHP folks who tends to dislike the "Slaytanists" (love that term), and the general stupidity that accompanies their form of "worship". It sounds to me like you are thinking of these teenage metalhead reverse Christian types, is this correct?

To this day. no 'Satanist', or any other member of what Americans nostalgically refer to as the Left hand path, which I have attempted to seriously discuss religious studies with, including the scriptures and the importance of the devil in it, modern esoteric religions, historical esoteric beliefs, ancient Greece or Rome. has shown any remarkable proficiency in any of these fields.
You could say, that as the Christians I regularly debate, and who feel that constant urgency for being persecuted by the devil, the Left hand path members seem to have the same sentiments for the lord of the Christians.
whichever antagonization the Christians display towards their devil. on their other side- the 'rebellious' Left hand pathers display towards the god of the Christians.
to the rest of us. it seems as the same society, the same social collective, chasing its own tail. in a complete and utter frustrating misinterpretation of the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[Jacksnyte]

The Satan of the Hebrew scriptures has not an a seed of commonality with freedom. he does business with the Lord, and takes his role or rather career very seriously. in fact you could say, that in Judaism, Satan has not a single moment of rest. or one free moment to sit down and enjoy a cup of hot tea.
He is a tester of men. a political rival. an attorney in the name of the Lord of the Hebrews, and one who has a clearance to enter the Court of God, and discuss results with the Lord.

So in effect, what you are playing with in your philosophical endeavours is the Christian devil- the twisted and flawed version of the Hebrew Satan.
who in Christian doctrine has come to embody all the failures of men. and serve as an anti thesis to the judgement of the lord.
you could say in effect. that the Christians have been caught in a fateful game of their own creation. on one side always persecuted by their devil, and on the other end of the road, their god is waiting to crush them with his club to smite them upside their head for failing to resist the temptation.


To this day. no 'Satanist', or any other member of what Americans nostalgically refer to as the Left hand path, which I have attempted to seriously discuss religious studies with, including the scriptures and the importance of the devil in it, modern esoteric religions, historical esoteric beliefs, ancient Greece or Rome. has shown any remarkable proficiency in any of these fields.
You could say, that as the Christians I regularly debate, and who feel that constant urgency for being persecuted by the devil, the Left hand path members seem to have the same sentiments for the lord of the Christians.
whichever antagonization the Christians display towards their devil. on their other side- the 'rebellious' Left hand pathers display towards the god of the Christians.
to the rest of us. it seems as the same society, the same social collective, chasing its own tail. in a complete and utter frustrating misinterpretation of the Hebrew scriptures.

How very broadly sweeping of you to state, Caladan. I don't adhere to the Hebrew scriptures, reversed, or otherwise. Sounds to me as if you have been trying to discuss these things with fundy christians, and high school metalhead Satanists. I have quite a few christian friends. I have no feeling of persecution from christians, or their deity. I do have a problem with extremist factions within christianity trying to influence government policy in favor of their beliefs to the detriment of others beliefs. I personally am not interested in "the Devil's" importance in Judeo-christian scripture, because it is not really relevant to my path, or interests. I am interested in modern esotericism. It would help you in attempting discussion with satanists, to realize the varied paradigms adopted by the variety of denominations of satanism and other related variants out there. You won't be able to effectively understand the particular person you are trying to have the discussion with if you don't understand their particular paradigm, and not one you may have assumed for them due to possible personal bias.

 

[Caladan]

How very broadly sweeping of you to state, Caladan. I don't adhere to the Hebrew scriptures, reversed, or otherwise. Sounds to me as if you have been trying to discuss these things with fundy christians, and high school metalhead Satanists.

No. here I am discussing it with you. someone who claims he is above those.
I do not adhere to the Hebrew Scriptures. however, as a man who seeks to be educated I have never made the mistake of underestimating the fact that they control every aspect of our lives, as a prime mover in what you may call 'western' history.
as evident that even you. a modern American. follow a copy of an original modern Satanist or at least if not a Satanist then a Left hand path brand, which is itself a copy of other contemporary movements, which are themselves a reactionary to a copy of a copy to different brands of Christianity, who in a distant past were spawned by a few early Jews. which ever version you believe your Satan is, or your Lucifer is. it has been originally and authentically presaged by Hebrew scribes who laboured in the service of the temple at Jerusalem and by other significant Jewish sects residing in the Judean hills, in the region around Jerusalem.
Whichever version of modern 'Kemetic' religion it is that you believe that you adhere to. you can be sure, that the Scribes at Thebes have presaged your culture with an authentic depiction of their practices. which have vanished from the pages of history for the past thousands of years. until French and British archaeologists and explorers of Egypt began their tedious work on a Rosetta Stone, the spoils of war between the colonial powers in North Africa.
and even this does not revive a dead religion back to our present time and age.

 

[Jacksnyte]

No. here I am discussing it with you. someone who claims he is above those.
I do not adhere to the Hebrew Scriptures. however, as a man who seeks to be educated I have never made the mistake of underestimating the fact that they control every aspect of our lives, as a prime mover in what you may call 'western' history.
as evident that even you. a modern American. follow a copy of an original modern Satanist brand, which is itself a copy of other contemporary movements, which are themselves a reactionary to a copy of a copy to different brands of Christianity, who in a distant past were spawned by a few early Jews. which ever version you believe your Satan is, or your Lucifer is. it has been originally and authentically presaged by Hebrew scribes who laboured in the service of the temple at Jerusalem and by other significant Jewish sects residing in the Judean hills, in the region around Jerusalem.
Whichever version of modern 'Kemetic' religion it is that you believe that you adhere to. you can be sure, that the Scribes at Thebes have presaged your culture with an authentic depiction of their practices. which have vanished from the pages of history for the past thousands of years. until French and British archaeologists and explorers of Egypt began their tedious work on a Rosetta Stone, the spoils of war between the colonial powers in North Africa.

I like the way you encourage rational thought on the subjects you discuss. What makes discussion with you difficult is that you do come off as abrasive and even a bit pontifical at times. I understand you are very well read, and extremely well-studied, and entitled to some scholarly pride, but one can always learn something new!

 

[Caladan]

What makes discussion with you difficult is that you do come off as abrasive

Of course I am. I have no idea how many Israelis you've met in your life. but I am making hoops in the air here in order to come off as patient and civil with people.

and even a bit pontifical at times.

Hah. How do you think I've ordered young troops to bend over backwards?
certainly not by saying 'please'.

I understand you are very well read, and extremely well-studied, and entitled to some scholarly pride, but one can always learn something new!

You are just going to have to take the values of the debates with the rest of the extra baggage.
I cannot stress enough. that all educated academics, professors and PhD holders in the fields of archaeology and history slam any person who inject spiritual motives into the ancient cultures which they study. usually the rest of us just enjoy the spectacle, then go back to hit the books.

 

[blackout]

The PRINCiplE (of) Darkness is Iconized in/from many mythologies.

Chaos (the principle, or first, of the Greek Gods), his beautiful and alluring offspring NYX (night), then Eris....
(Chaos Magic, PRINCipiA Discordia)

There is Pan, who as depicted in the modern mythology Pan's Labrynth
is much like the Hebrew Satan Caladan describes.
The frolicking, "questionable", trickster who you're really not sure of,
who is actually pushing you to Overcome your personal chalanges,
and face your own fears and demons.
(that you may take the Seat of your Own Throne
and Realize Your inheritance-"higher/highest Self"/Godhood/Royalty-- whatever)
(Die to your fears, lower self and all that)

The modern Setian understanding/interpretion/Iconization of Set
is not the same as that of the Kemetic,
but I Connect with it.
I connect with the Setian Set as an Iconic version
of the PRINC(ipl)E of Darkness.
For me, the same principle darkness I know in Chaos
is there in Set.

But Satan is another story altogether.
At least as presented by literal christianity.

The christian version of Satan is as "empowering"
and "useful" as the christian version of God.
(as in NOT)
Honestly, the christian version is a confused mess.
Then Satanism turns it over, and around
creating yet another confused mess.
The PRINCiplEs of modern Satanism
and the PRINCiplEs of mainstream Christianity
often seem as confused to me
as the Icons used to "embody" them.

or maybe, I am the confused one.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Of course I am. I have no idea how many Israelis you've met in your life. but I am making loops in the air here in order to come off as patient and civil with people.

Hah. How do you think I've ordered young troops to bend over backwards?
certainly not by saying 'please'.

You are just going to have to take the values of the debates with the rest of the extra baggage.
I cannot stress enough. that all educated academics, professors and PhD holders in the fields of archaeology and history slam any person who inject a spiritual motives into the ancient cultures which they study. usually the rest of us just enjoy the spectacle, then go back to hit the books.

Sorry, but the majority of people just aren't likely to be as well-educated, or well-traveled as you. I make no apologies for my belief system, as it works for me. The thing is, most religions with a very few exceptions tend to have their basis(at least in part) on one(or several) ancient culture(s). Some people like to rebuild from the rubble of old structures. What is it about taking pieces of an old structure to build a new one that bothers you so much? What do you feel it damages? I am sure ignorance of certain historical facts and archaeological evidence may be rampant within a great many modern-day Kemetics, but I don't know very many strict Kemetic reconstructionists. Most of us do not claim to be practicing the exact same faith as the original egyptians.

 

[Caladan]

When a North American member on the forum, goes into the Islam DIR and pester modern Egyptians with proclaiming to them that they are lowly Arabs, and have no relation to their own historical Egypt. I understand, that it is not only us Jews who suffer from the damages of revisionism. when someone takes a religion which is not their own, doctrines which are not theirs. and as a parasitical insect tries to crawl into your own protective armour and take your original place.
Surly. you people have your own original beliefs. modern or at least semi modern. philosophies. or even doctrines.
why would you even go into exploring the possibility of trying to fit into the sandals of middle eastern men and women who think that defecting outside is the embodiment of everything that is good and reassuring in life?
You do not fight our battles. your struggle for survival in this world has no relationship to ours. you do not speak our languages. nor do you live in the regions which we consider sacred. and which have spawned all the religions of renown. which either dominate world politics and history, or inspire people to build anachronistic monuments across the modern world.

 

[blackout]

I really don't see anything wrong Dan,
with taking an ancient thing
and making it "your own".
Finding in it meaning that is relevant/revealant
to YOU in the time and place of your own persona.
Of course to pretend that your version
is anything other than your version
is silly, and dishonest.
and completely unnecessary.

 

[Jacksnyte]

When a North American member on the forum, goes into the Islam DIR and pester modern Egyptians with proclaiming to them that they are lowly Arabs, and have no relation to their own historical Egypt. I understand, that it is not only us Jews who suffer from the damages of revisionism. when someone takes a religion which is not their own, doctrines which are not theirs. and as a parasitical insect tries to crawl into your own protective armour and take your original place.
Surly. you people have your own original beliefs. modern or at least semi modern. philosophies. or even doctrines.
why would you even go into exploring the possibility of trying to fit into the sandals of middle eastern men and women who think that defecting outside is the embodiment of everything that is good and reassuring in life?
You do not fight our battles. your struggle for survival in this world has no relationship to ours. you do not speak our languages. nor do you live in the regions which we consider sacred. and which have spawned all the religions of renown. which either dominate world politics and history, or inspire people to build anachronistic monuments across the modern world.

Why not? What culture on this planet has not at some point in time been co-opted? Think about how the USA is structured. It is a conglomerate of many different cultures that have displaced the original cultures of the continent. As far as philosophy, does it also bother you when classical Greek philosophy is adopted by non-greeks? Are you annoyed by Jews who converted to Judaism, but aren't of Jewish decent? Are they less Jewish because of this? What religious beliefs are truly original, and not built upon the ashes and rubble of earlier beliefs?

 

[Caladan]

I really don't see anything wrong Dan,
with taking an ancient thing
and making it "your own".

Look at the history of Christianity. and we can discuss it a bit further.

 

[blackout]

Look at the history of Christianity. and we can discuss it a bit further.

But Christians don't ACKNOWLEDGE that they have taken an ancient mythology,
and CHANGED it for their own purposes.
They claim that they have ultimately interpreted and "realized" it.
Fulfilled it.
This is in effect a move to usurp and 'command' /commondeer it.
Redefine it with some "grander" sense of objective authority.
As opposed to honest inner personal exploration and in'spiration
as brought about by ones OWN journey into Icon and Myth.
(for one's own personal purposes)

I think that legalism and literalism are the main cause of the...
deep seated and rightful indignation of a nation
who feels it's history is being ... profanely stolen... from them.

 

[Erebus]

I have to admit Caladan, I'm having a little difficulty following your argument. It seems to me that your main complaint is that Devil Worshippers take a Hebrew figure out of context and/or recreate him entirely. My first problem with this is that the Hebrew scriptures aren't actually our scriptures. We have no reason to follow them or revere them as sacred. Like any other concept, we like to take parts that appeal to us and ignore the parts that are irrelevant. In the Case of Hebrew scripture, the vast majority of it is irrelevant to Western Devil Worshippers. Our interest lies largely in the impact Christianity has had on our culture and how best to reaffirm our identity. Jewish culture, religion and ethics are of little interest (I don't mean to offend with that, I'm just trying to be honest).

The second point is that the vast majority of Satanists/Devil worshippers will tell you that "Satan" is simply a convenient name. It has shock factor and drama in the western world that is lacking in other names. I've explained before that I personally don't consider it a particularly useful name beyond drama, but that's just my take on it. I'll still use the name if I want to for whatever reason.

Furthermore, whether its good or bad; ideas, words and religions change. The name Satan doesn't refer to an angel of God in the West any more than the word "gay" means somebody jovial. Preserving tradition is fair enough, but given time all traditions die and all nations crumble. Not many people now would go the religious route of our ancestors and revere the elements and the sun in a crude, tribal manner. Instead, if a person chooses to revere nature, they'll go with a more refined form which might not resemble the original whatsoever, but that's just the way it is. I myself wouldn't call it parasitical any more than creating a gun to replace an arrow is parasitical, it's simply the evolution of a concept.

 

[outhouse]

My first problem with this is that the Hebrew scriptures aren't actually our scriptures. We have no reason to follow them or revere them as sacred.

they are the foundation for your beliefs.

the satan figure originates within ancient hebrews scriptire, without Judaism you have no main charactor

I guess my question to you is, Do you follow satan/devil traits or words left behind by any part of the OT or NT "OR" are you just projecting a imaginitive image and culture out of this air???

 

[Jacksnyte]

they are the foundation for your beliefs.

the satan figure originates within ancient hebrews scriptire, without Judaism you have no main charactor

I guess my question to you is, Do you follow satan/devil traits or words left behind by any part of the OT or NT "OR" are you just projecting a imaginitive image and culture out of this air???

The vast majority of Satanists view the figure of Satan as a Promethean ideal whether or not thay revere him as an actual entity or not. A goal to which one may aspire. To fully understand the mindset, one needs to first step outside of the binary model of the traditional Judeo-christian paradigm.

 

[Breathe]

they are the foundation for your beliefs.

Problem with your statement is, for many they are not.

"Satan" and so on are just "symbols" for a large chunk of LHP-followers. They don't follow the Bible, be it Tanakh or New Testament.

Saying it's the foundation for their beliefs is like saying they're the basis of your beliefs simply because you're Western: not correct, and looks a bit silly.

 

[Erebus]

they are the foundation for your beliefs.

Nope

the satan figure originates within ancient hebrews scriptire, without Judaism you have no main charactor

I guess my question to you is, Do you follow satan/devil traits or words left behind by any part of the OT or NT "OR" are you just projecting a imaginitive image and culture out of this air???

The "Devil" figure extends far beyond Judaism and is found within much of the world's religious doctrine and history. "Satan" is simply one name that became a dirty word in the west and is thus used by those who wish to explore taboo subjects.
Also, those who experience the Devil for themselves (literally or figuratively) are the ones given a glimpse of its true nature, whether dreadful, wonderful or both. Scripture is simply the interpretation of others and most Devil Worshippers prefer to find out firsthand.
I'm aware you're an atheist, so you probably don't believe the Devil can be experienced. If this is the case I'll go with the "pulling images out of the air" option

 

[outhouse]

The vast majority of Satanists view the figure of Satan as a Promethean ideal whether or not thay revere him as an actual entity or not. A goal to which one may aspire. To fully understand the mindset, one needs to first step outside of the binary model of the traditional Judeo-christian paradigm.

I understand LHP doesnt follow the stereotypical devil

I do think some of the idea's are used from the ancient foundations laid before you.

to say your using others as well as some biblical interpretations is kind of hard to deny is it not?

 

[outhouse]

I'm aware you're an atheist, so you probably don't believe the Devil can be experienced. If this is the case I'll go with the "pulling images out of the air" option

Fair enough, and you are right.

I understand there are things as people we dont understand, I find it primitive thinking to associate religion, deity's and myths for what we do not know.

 

[Jacksnyte]

I understand LHP doesnt follow the stereotypical devil

I do think some of the idea's are used from the ancient foundations laid before you.

to say your using others as well as some biblical interpretations is kind of hard to deny is it not?

I would say more is taken from Old Testament/Tanakh versions than from New Testament versions, but, yes, of course! Otherwise it wouldn't be Satanism, it would be Ba'alism, or Setianism(yeah, I know there are already religious organizations out there for these).
Of course, I tend to like paradigms like the following when it comes to Satan:

http://www.satanicreds.org/satanicreds/9-sat-tan.html

http://www.satanservice.org/satanism-bibliography/