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Did Adam and Eve and animals have genitals before the fall?
- Thread starter Kfox
- Start date
Well, according to Genesis 1:
So, yes.
20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living [e]creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the [f]firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that [h]moves on the earth.”
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that [h]moves on the earth.”
So, yes.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Nope, I think you've got it.
In answer to your question, yes, Adam and Eve cleaved to each other shamelessly at the end of chapter 2, so that means... genitals.
Regarding the animals, I think so based on Chapter 1, but, it's not super clear and obvious.
It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This would also include the knowledge that one day you would die. Being aware of one's mortality might make one a bit more careful and discerning of what mistakes (sins) one should avoid in order to not invite an early death.
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No, that's a later invention. Adam and Eve were always going to die (otherwise the presence of the Tree of Life is meaningless). Nowhere in the Garden story does it say (a) that Adam and Eve sinned (b) that death had not till then entered the world or (c) that God expelled Adam and Eve for any reason other that the one [he] states in Genesis 3:22-3: "22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good from evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" ─ 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden."
The story about sin and the Fall appears to have developed in the midrash tradition among the Jews of Alexandria late in the 2nd century BCE. Paul mentions it briefly but no one really noticed until Augustine of Hippo, who realized it was the perfect selling tool, the snake-oil technique of first instilling fear in your audience and then promising a remedy that only you can provide, and for a very reasonable price.
The first bonk of Adam and Eve is mentioned in Genesis 4:1. There's no suggestion that any alteration was needed for this to happen.
I like the hypotheses that, first, the function of the Garden story is to link the legend of the creation to the early folk-history of the Hebrews; and second, that it depicts the childhood of mankind, where all is innocence; and then puberty and the getting of understanding; and then being told, you're grown up now, go and make your own way.
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I think the original earth was designed to have just expanded its circumference to accommodate population growth. Eventually it would have been the largest planet in the solar system, larger than Jupiter even, had Adam not sinned. But the auto-grow feature never got tested, so we'll never know for sure.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Wow! The things that people make up.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Can you please cite the Bible verses that say that there was no physical death before Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree?
Hey, I'll bet you I could start a small church with stuff like that. You just say with conviction, and a few poundings on the pulpit, and true believers would be born.
Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"
1 Cor. 15:21-22, "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. "
BTW, the Bible never says it was an apple. Considering they don't grow in that area that would be a problem if it did say that.
It just says the 'fruit".
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Nope, the end of chapter 2 is the first time. Not sure if it matters for what you're saying, but, I think it's important for the story. There's word play in the Hebrew that is missing in the English that links the consummation of Adam and Eve with the serpent.
It would be even more apparent before the chapter divisions were added.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Physical death has always existed and it will continue to exist, since the human body is mortal.
Spiritual death entered the world through sin, and through Christ we are saved from this attachment and sin.
“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins”
The resurrection of the dead is not a resurrection of bodies, it is a spiritual resurrection.
“Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it.”
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Such projection. All you have is make believe. You have no evidence.
I have noticed that almost all science deniers are cowards. Are you willing to learn what is and what is not evidence or are you going to add to the data that tells us creationists are just making up stories to support their personal god myths?
By the way, the definitions that I will use are used by all scientists.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I know. I was just trying to be cute.BTW, the Bible never says it was an apple. Considering they don't grow in that area that would be a problem if it did say that.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
They would use their powers of constipation.
Please...do we really need to take some allegorical tale...seriously?
It's disheartening.
It's disheartening.
Ladies wouldn't know what your question means.
Gentlemen, never having or needing a scrotum, testes or a prostate, would wonder likewise.
That's interesting. I can't detect it in the English (RSV). But Robert Alter in his introduction to his The Hebrew Bible vol 1 says ─
One of the most salient characteristics of biblical Hebrew is its extraordinary concreteness, manifested especially in a fondness for images rooted in the human body. The general predisposition of modern translators is to convert most of this concrete language into more abstract terms that have the purported advantage of clarity but turn the pungency of the original into stale paraphrase. A good deal of this concrete biblical language based on the body is what a linguist would call lexicalized metaphor—imagery, here taken from body parts and bodily functions, that is made to stand for some general concept as a fixed item in the vocabulary of the language (as “eye” in English can be used to mean “perceptiveness” or “connoisseur’s understanding”).
So I'd expect him to make your point. He renders the end of Chapter 2 and the start of 3 as ─
21 And the LORD God cast a deep slumber on the human, and he slept, and He took one of his ribs and closed over the flesh where it had been, 22 and the LORD God built the rib He had taken from the human into a woman and He brought her to the human. 23 And the human said: “This one at last, bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh, “This one shall be called Woman, for from man was this one taken.”
24 Therefore does a man leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife and they become one flesh. 25 And the two of them were naked,
the human and his woman, and they were not ashamed.
─
1 Now the serpent was most cunning of all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, 2 “Though God said,
you shall not eat from any tree of the garden —” And the woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the garden's trees we may eat, but
from the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden 3 God has said, 4 "You shall not eat from it and you shall not touch it, lest you die.'” And
the serpent said to the woman,5“You shall not be doomed to die. For God knows that on the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and
you will become as gods knowing good and evil.”
What have I missed?
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The tree of life was connected to natural instinct; inner self, which has a sense of naturally integrated limits. The tree knowledge of good and evil, is connected to the ego. This is more symbolic of learned knowledge from outside, such as fake news. External learning is how natural limits become exceeded; fad and marketing.
After Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge; ego appears, they realize they are naked. They were naked before and after they ate, but only react to being naked after the ego learns naked is taboo; good or evil. Now they feel a need to cover themselves, which is a tell, that they have eaten of the tree of learned knowledge. They had lost that innocence of innate feeling of being morally neutral; natural.
Before that, naked was fine, since it was part of natural instinct and nature. Before, the fall, the ego had not yet value judged naked as good or evil. But after they ate; externally learned knowledge of good and evil, naked becomes a socially learned taboo, that amplified desire beyond natural limits. Prohibition creates temptation. Over population would now start to occur. They had genitals both before and after the fall, but the taboo of knowledge of good and evil; ego, causes them to exceed natural limits; original sin. Sex become more than procreation, but a type of self medicating drug that makes babies, and would go on to need abortion due to over exceeding natural limits. Abortion is needed by those who cannot self regulate to the reality of the earth.
Sin is not imputed where there is no law; knowledge of good and evil. It was not a sin ten years ago, not to know all the Lefty Trans pronouns. It became a sin, when Liberalism made it a law, thereby creating a new sin in schools. The same behavior of old now becomes a sin due to a new law or new learned knowledge of good and evil.
The fact that the Left like to make the most laws; regulations, shows its connection to Satan. It amplifies darkness and sin due to making more and more laws thereby defining more and more sin. The ego is why the world is overly populated. This is not natural. Hollywood and Madison Ave, is all ego and is also slanted Lefty. Even climate change is trying to reduce life to a bunch of Lefty behavior tattoos. Lefty is what you get when you constantly eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; excessive compulsive. The Right is also about ego, but makes room for the inner self; religion. There is a trend to reduce regulation and Lefty sin.