Did Any of the Authors of the Gospels Know Jesus?

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is nothing but pathetic and baseless ad hominem. So, for example, the Schnelle source has a 14 page, 2 columns per page, bibliography referencing roughly 700 scholars. You, with zero credentials and zero claim to credibility, simply dismiss them as cowardly and/or cynical opportunists. This isn't an argument; it's worthless hubris.

Yes, and Ehrman et al will harp on repeatedly that no credible scholar doubts that Jesus was historical.

This strikes me as a good summary of our difference, and a good time to augment my ignore list ...

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I'm used to the ad homs. Jesus appears to bring the best out of people.

I've been considering why I like the HJ debate so much and have concluded that this is the reason. It's hard to find so much hysteria, irrationality and vicious attack from otherwise rational debaters on any other subject. It intrigues me.

 

[Alceste]

I've been considering why I like the HJ debate so much and have concluded that this is the reason. It's hard to find so much hysteria, irrationality and vicious attack from otherwise rational debaters on any other subject. It intrigues me.

Really? You guys are whipping out all the exact same arguments and conspiracy theories we all lampoon together on a daily basis in threads on evolution or global warming, and I'm the one who is being irrational?

That intrigues me. I'm not used to seeing faith based positions that contradict academic consensus coming from you or steeltoes. I guess we all have our blind spots.

 

[Desert Snake]

Really? You guys are whipping out all the exact same arguments and conspiracy theories we all lampoon together on a daily basis in threads on evolution or global warming, and I'm the one who is being irrational?

That intrigues me. I'm not used to seeing faith based positions that contradict academic consensus coming from you or steeltoes. I guess we all have our blind spots.

You know, you used the term 'horse in the race', well, don't assume I have a horse in the race either...but, for now, I'm leaning towards real Jesus, embellished scripture. very possibly invented portions in later nt, idk.

but....no horse in the race either way.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

the reason people think they didn't know jesus is just a time-frame factor, considering that some were family.....it would be quite strange if they didn't know him.

..., for now, I'm leaning towards real Jesus, embellished scripture.

You claim that some of the gospel authors knew Jesus because they were family but are only 'leaning' towards a real Jesus. Do you even think about what you write?

 

[Desert Snake]

You claim that some of the gospel authors knew Jesus because they were family but are only 'leaning' towards a real Jesus. Do you even think about what you write?

It's more complicated than that.
'If' /such & such occurred/ then /such & such very likely occurred as well/.
Notice how one fact is dependent on the other?

Jay, why not just start a thread detailing your opinion on this,??

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's more complicated than that.
'If' /such & such occurred/ then /such & such very likely occurred as well/.
Notice how one fact is dependent on the other?

Jay, why not just start a thread detailing your opinion on this,??

My opinion is that you made a stupid claim that you subsequently refused to defend.

 

[Alceste]

You know, you used the term 'horse in the race', well, don't assume I have a horse in the race either...but, for now, I'm leaning towards real Jesus, embellished scripture. very possibly invented portions in later nt, idk.

but....no horse in the race either way.

Fair enough. Sounds reasonable.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

That intrigues me. I'm not used to seeing faith based positions that contradict academic consensus coming from you or steeltoes. I guess we all have our blind spots.

Yes, but the blind spot is your assumption that our positions are faith-based rather than backed by strong evidence and rational argumentation.

Trust me, Alceste, this is one area where it is unwise to blindly accept the word of the academics.

Or don't trust me. Engage the evidence yourself and see what you find.

 

[Desert Snake]

My opinion is that you made a stupid claim that you subsequently refused to defend.

Just start a thread detailing your opinion on this..that's my response to you//

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Just start a thread detailing your opinion on this..that's my response to you//

I second your request. I would love to see Jayhawker defend his position on the historical Jesus.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, but the blind spot is your assumption that our positions are faith-based rather than backed by strong evidence and rational argumentation.

Trust me, Alceste, this is one area where it is unwise to blindly accept the word of the academics.

Or don't trust me. Engage the evidence yourself and see what you find.

How can I review your evidence if you won't tell me what it is? And when were you planning to start with the rational argumentation?

 

[Desert Snake]

the rational argumentation?

What's that?

 

[Alceste]

I second your request. I would love to see Jayhawker defend his position on the historical Jesus.

His position doesn't need defending. He's not the one who is rejecting scholarly census. Your position needs defending because it is at odds with the overwhelming majority opinion of historians, archeologists and anthropologists.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

How can I review your evidence if you won't tell me what it is? And when were you planning to start with the rational argumentation?

Sunstone asked that this thread not turn into a fight over the historical Jesus. If you want to review my (irrefutable) argumentation and evidence, go to the One-on-One Forum and read a couple of my threads there.

If you're still feeling confident in your historical-Jesus position, start a thread on the subject. I don't remember you ever participating in the many such threads we've had here.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

His position doesn't need defending. He's not the one who is rejecting scholarly census. Your position needs defending because it is at odds with the overwhelming majority opinion of historians, archeologists and anthropologists.

Really, Alceste, have you never thought carefully about what it means to discern the truth in matters of ancient history?

You seem to equate it with hard science.

 

[Desert Snake]

Sunstone asked that this thread not turn into a fight over the historical Jesus. If you want to review my (irrefutable) argumentation and evidence, go to the One-on-One Forum and read a couple of my threads there.

If you're still feeling confident in your historical-Jesus position, start a thread on the subject. I don't remember you ever participating in the many such threads we've had here.

Yep, we've taken the leap and created controversial threads, at the risk of being insulted and called names, so i'm not going to debate much until someone creates a thread marking their own opinions..

 

[Alceste]

Really, Alceste, have you never thought carefully about what it means to discern the truth in matters of ancient history?

You seem to equate it with hard science.

Lol, really? Am I the one who is arguing that my personal opinion is "irrefutable"?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Lol, really? Am I the one who is arguing that my personal opinion is "irrefutable"?

Joke. Loosen up.

(But of course it really is irrefutable until someone refutes it.)

 

[InChrist]

Because they lived in a Aramaic speaking place. Hellenist were their enemies.

I find I must disagree with your view as I believe that the historical and archeological evidence indicates that Greek was the common language of the time, being used throughout the Roman empire, just as English is used at present throughout the world.


"Today, however, new archaeological discoveries have undermined the speculations of scholars and brought into clear light the fact that Greek was well known among the Jews, especially the priesthood, leadership class, and the merchant class. In particular, Greek was well understood in "Galilee of the Gentiles," the region where Jesus Christ of Nazareth was raised, and grew up as a young lad. There is no doubt, therefore, that Jesus and the original apostles all spoke Greek -- commonly, as a "second language."

Did Jesus and the Apostles Speak Greek?

http://www.ntgreek.org/answers/nt_written_in_greek.htm