Did Jesus actually exist as a historical figure?

[outhouse]

Both the same. EVERYWHERE

So is imagination. Imagination is everywhere.


Your personal definition means little here, in a historical context.

 

[outhouse]

I don't think Saul was specifically persecuting the Church. The Church didn't exist in an important way.
But there were plenty of people who would hunt out antiRoman operatives. Judea was rife with violent opposition to Roman occupation and the puppet Jewish government. The Romans were ruthlessly suppressing those terrorist/ freedom fighters.
I believe that is what the earliest Christians were.
Tkm

There is some truth in this. Its my opinion as well.

But Paul hunted down a sect of Hellenist Proselytes following what they thought was a form of Judaism.

Following the martyrdom of a trouble maker at Passover in the temple, made this group appear to be dangerous following a Zealots actions.

The temple was on loose ground that could give away at any moment. The Hellenist running the temple knew the Romans would just assume tear it all down if it did not keep producing the money it generated. Pilate and Caiaphas life depended on keeping the peace, and any threat to that peace would be dealt with ASAP.

 

[oldbadger]

I have too much other stuff blow'n through my brain to get into any of this. But thanks for the invite.

Fair enough..........

 

[JoStories]

To what specific [Price] theory are you referring?

I apologize in advance if this was made clear in your communications with @outhouse -- I've pretty much had him on my ignore list since the invention of indoor plumbing.​

Go back to post #123, there is a link in that post. Since that is the one that was posted, that is the one I was referring to.

 

[Awoon]

So is imagination. Imagination is everywhere.


Your personal definition means little here, in a historical context.

But this isn't a history class with a prize for the winner. You don't seem to understand that, do you?

 

[JoStories]

If you could point out the obvious bias that would be great. What is it that you cannot accept? So far I have reserved judgment, I haven't accepted or rejected any of it, especially his ultimate conclusion because one can't be so sure that there was no Jesus at all, but then again, he obviously has come to that conclusion. What is it that he is so wrong about, can you give specifics?

From my POV, if one is trying to prove a point, even if that point is to deny the existence of Jesus as a historical figure, one must give equal measure to the evidence that Jesus DID exist and then try to discredit it. Now, I grant you that Price does use many references in his work. But he also leaves quite a bit out. He goes to great lengths to prove his theory correct and in that, he does a fairly decent job of it, but again, IMO, a good argument for any point has to give equal measure to the other side of the argument. For example, in my dissertation about the ubiquitous nature of God across all religions, I must, to be fair, argue that each religion has its own version which is unique to that faith. Then I have to prove my side of things. If I have not given a good and scholarly analysis of the issue, I have failed as a scholar. Does this help you to se this from my POV?

 

[JoStories]

Heaven is everywhere. Universe is everywhere. Same thing just different words.

IMO, not even remotely. Heaven has a distinct and clear concept for most people. Pleasant place with all your dead relatives, etc etc. The universe, while it is everywhere, is a given place that we can see, albeit in a limited manner, and has little to do with the concept of heaven as defined.

 

[JoStories]

Both the same. EVERYWHERE

Circular reasoning and a non answer to what Outhouse had to say. They are not even remotely the same. One exists and we have proof of that by seeing the night sky. The other is purely mythological with no basis in reality.

 

[Awoon]

Circular reasoning and a non answer to what Outhouse had to say. They are not even remotely the same. One exists and we have proof of that by seeing the night sky. The other is purely mythological with no basis in reality.

Space is everywhere. Heaven is its' nickname.

 

[Awoon]

Circular reasoning and a non answer to what Outhouse had to say. They are not even remotely the same. One exists and we have proof of that by seeing the night sky. The other is purely mythological with no basis in reality.

Outhouse is well known at Biblical History and Criticism forum.

 

[JoStories]

Space is everywhere. Heaven is its' nickname.

Horse pucky, particularly to any astrology worth his or her weight. Heaven is mythological and has NO basis in reality. Space can be seen and has been, albeit to a VERY limited degree, explored. Can you possibly say the same for your 'heaven'?

 

[JoStories]

Outhouse is well known at Biblical History and Criticism forum.

What in the world has that to do with this debate? Nothing, that is what.

 

[Awoon]

What in the world has that to do with this debate? Nothing, that is what.

That's a reference for you. Check it out.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Go back to post #123, there is a link in that post. Since that is the one that was posted, that is the one I was referring to.

Here is post #123. I see no hyperlink.

I have read Price before. He belies his agenda right at the outset when he states that he does not believe that Jesus ever existed and then goes on and on and on ad nauseum; to attempt to prove his point. Now I grant you, he spent a great deal of time and effort to try to prove his theory but what I ave read of him, he bases nearly all of his theory on passages from the new and old testaments. While that might give it credence, it does not consider the evidence we have outside the Bible, which, IMO, does little to substantiate his claims.

So, to repeat, …

To what specific [Price] theory are you referring?

 

[steeltoes]

From my POV, if one is trying to prove a point, even if that point is to deny the existence of Jesus as a historical figure, one must give equal measure to the evidence that Jesus DID exist and then try to discredit it. Now, I grant you that Price does use many references in his work. But he also leaves quite a bit out. He goes to great lengths to prove his theory correct and in that, he does a fairly decent job of it, but again, IMO, a good argument for any point has to give equal measure to the other side of the argument. For example, in my dissertation about the ubiquitous nature of God across all religions, I must, to be fair, argue that each religion has its own version which is unique to that faith. Then I have to prove my side of things. If I have not given a good and scholarly analysis of the issue, I have failed as a scholar. Does this help you to se this from my POV?

Fair enough, although that article is the last one in a series of 4. I think that two of the other articles cover the other side of the argument in greater detail, but then again, maybe there are some things that you would be looking for that he left out.

At least you read the article, some here dismiss theories out of hand without even reading them.

 

[JoStories]

Here is post #123. I see no hyperlink.

​

So, to repeat, …

​

The one posted in this thread. I will not do your work for,you. Go back and find it or don't because speaking very frankly, I don't give a damn.

 

[JoStories]

Fair enough, although that article is the last one in a series of 4. I think that two of the other articles cover the other side of the argument in greater detail, but then again, maybe there are some things that you would be looking for that he left out.

At least you read the article, some here dismiss theories out of hand without even reading them.

I'm glad we understand each other and yes, I read the link and all of his work in fact.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Am I the only one who fails to see the link in Post #123?

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse is well known at Biblical History and Criticism forum.

What do you think that means anyway?

 

[steeltoes]

Am I the only one who fails to see the link in Post #123?

I see it. You could google, "how a fictional Jesus gave rise to Christianity."