Did Jesus actually exist as a historical figure?

[Vishvavajra]

How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity

There, now you have a theory that is not merely a conspiracy theory or guesswork.

Regardless of what one believes about the historical Jesus (or lack thereof), it's undeniable that the version we have in the Gospels is a mythic figure.

That fellow you link to says a lot of things that are certainly true. However, many of them are actually mainstream in Biblical scholarship. For example, the idea that the Gospel authors were biographers in the ancient fashion who were actively constructing their subject in the process, rather than mere chroniclers, is actually the dominant idea even in mainline seminaries. The view that the Gospels were eyewitness accounts or based on collections of eyewitness accounts, which was the dominant view a century or so ago, is now regarded as a fringe view in the scholarly world. (It's still widely held among laymen, but there's a vast gulf between the world of the scholar and that of the average churchgoer--even more so between the scholar and the apologist, who often masquerades as a scholar while not adhering to anything like the same standards of discourse.)

One can believe that there was a historical Jesus while at the same time acknowledging that the Jesus of the Gospels is a literary/mythic character and that the details we're told about him are consciously chosen by the authors as ways of constructing that character, largely by allusion to texts and imagery that the original audience would have been well familiar with. Still, it's good to have viewpoints like the one in the above link. Keeps people on their toes and prevents complacency.

 

[JoStories]

How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity

There, now you have a theory that is not merely a conspiracy theory or guesswork.

I have read Price before. He belies his agenda right at the outset when he states that he does not believe that Jesus ever existed and then goes on and on and on ad nauseum; to attempt to prove his point. Now I grant you, he spent a great deal of time and effort to try to prove his theory but what I ave read of him, he bases nearly all of his theory on passages from the new and old testaments. While that might give it credence, it does not consider the evidence we have outside the Bible, which, IMO, does little to substantiate his claims.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have read Price before. He belies his agenda right at the outset ...

Therefore?

 

[outhouse]

Therefore?

His hypothesis is quite laughable and easily refuted.

 

[Skwim]

Can you accept the concept that Jesus was a real person whose short mission, possibly mixed up with some stories of other people, was picked up and used by people like Saul/Paul?

I did before reading The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "original Jesus" a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Now I'm not so sure.

The evidence is indirect, secondary and tertiary, so why don't you come down [?] and look for ideas with us, rather than stand around murmuring 'Nah....... nuffin' here!' ?
We could do with your knowledge.........

I did look for ideas. See above.

 

[steeltoes]

Regardless of what one believes about the historical Jesus (or lack thereof), it's undeniable that the version we have in the Gospels is a mythic figure.

That fellow you link to says a lot of things that are certainly true. However, many of them are actually mainstream in Biblical scholarship. For example, the idea that the Gospel authors were biographers in the ancient fashion who were actively constructing their subject in the process, rather than mere chroniclers, is actually the dominant idea even in mainline seminaries. The view that the Gospels were eyewitness accounts or based on collections of eyewitness accounts, which was the dominant view a century or so ago, is now regarded as a fringe view in the scholarly world. (It's still widely held among laymen, but there's a vast gulf between the world of the scholar and that of the average churchgoer--even more so between the scholar and the apologist, who often masquerades as a scholar while not adhering to anything like the same standards of discourse.)

One can believe that there was a historical Jesus while at the same time acknowledging that the Jesus of the Gospels is a literary/mythic character and that the details we're told about him are consciously chosen by the authors as ways of constructing that character, largely by allusion to texts and imagery that the original audience would have been well familiar with. Still, it's good to have viewpoints like the one in the above link. Keeps people on their toes and prevents complacency.

Other than his ultimate conclusion, most everything he says is drawn from mainstream scholarship.

 

[steeltoes]

Can you accept the concept that Jesus was a real person whose short mission, possibly mixed up with some stories of other people, was picked up and used by people like Saul/Paul?
The evidence is indirect, secondary and tertiary, so why don't you come down and look for ideas with us, rather than stand around murmuring 'Nah....... nuffin' here!' ?
We could do with your knowledge.........

Paul's writings predate the gospels, in fact Paul died before the gospels were written, so no, I cannot accept that Paul picked up and used the story since it did not exist in Paul's lifetime.

 

[oldbadger]

I did before reading The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "original Jesus" a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Now I'm not so sure.

I did look for ideas. See above.

I'll look it up and see what it costs........ Anything I want to read always costs £30 !!

Even so, the detail in G-Mark, together with reports that (imo) are embarrassing for Christianity is just too fine to have been a complete concoction......

Can you give a brief intro to the 'Was the original Jesus a Pagan God?

 

[oldbadger]

Paul's writings predate the gospels, in fact Paul died before the gospels were written, so no, I cannot accept that Paul picked up and used the story since it did not exist in Paul's lifetime.

Paul never used the story. He didn't know anything about the story. He didn't know snuff-all about Jesus.
Paul wasn't interested in the life story and brief mission of Jesus.

 

[steeltoes]

His hypothesis is quite laughable and easily refuted.

I would be more than happy to see it refuted. If you could offer something up it would be appreciated.

 

[Skwim]

I'll look it up and see what it costs........ Anything I want to read always costs £30 !!

Even so, the detail in G-Mark, together with reports that (imo) are embarrassing for Christianity is just too fine to have been a complete concoction......

Can you give a brief intro to the 'Was the original Jesus a Pagan God?

Here's a blurb from Amazon.com

"This groundbreaking book looks at one of the greatest cover-ups in history and dares to think the unthinkable about Christianity - that it was in fact a Jewish Mystery School modelled on the ancient Pagan Mysteries. The myth of Dionysus bears startling resemblances to the the story of Jesus Christ. It compares with the biblical story in the following ways: * Dionysus is God made flesh and is hailed as the 'Saviour of Mankind' and the 'Son of God' * His father is God and and his mother is a mortal virgin who afterwards becomes worshipped as the 'Mother of God' * He is born in a cowshed * He drives out demons, turns water into wine and and raises people from the dead * He rides triumphantly into town while people wave palms to honour him The date revered by the first Christians as Jesus' birthday was originally that of Dionysus, also the three day Spring Festival of Dionysus celebrating his death and resurrection coincides with the Christian festival of Easter. The last Supper and the Eucharist are also parallel Dionysian rites. This is not common knowledge as the story was a closely guarded secret of the Pagan mysteries. Secondly the evidence of Christianity's pagan roots were systematically covered up the Roman Church."​

Also, from the "book description" on another Amazon.com site.

"This astonishing book completely undermines the traditional history of Christianity that has been perpetuated for centuries by the Church. Drawing on the cutting edge of modern scholarship, authors Tim Freke and Peter Gandy present overwhelming evidence that the Jesus of the New Testament is a mythical figure.

Far from being eyewitness accounts, as is traditionally held, the Gospels are actually Jewish adaptations of ancient Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting godman Osiris-Dionysus. The supernatural story of Jesus is not the history of a miraculous Messiah, but a carefully crafted spiritual allegory designed to guide initiates on a journey of mystical discovery.

A little more than a century ago most people believed that the strange story of Adam and Eve was history; today it is understood to be a myth. Within a few decades, Freke and Gandy argue, we will likewise be amazed that the fabulous story of God incarnate -- who was born of a virgin, who turned water into wine, and who rose from the dead -- could have been interpreted as anything but a profound parable."​

Here's a Kindle Book sampling. The book doesn't have an introduction, but starts right off with page one, which you can bring up.

 

[Awoon]

Paul's writings predate the gospels, in fact Paul died before the gospels were written, so no, I cannot accept that Paul picked up and used the story since it did not exist in Paul's lifetime.

I've read an opinion on another forum that says the same thing. Very interesting, but I wanna know who took over for Paul from the Jews to persecute the Church? Seems the Jews gave up and Rome took over killing the Disicples/Apostles.
Any one know?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Even so, the detail in G-Mark, together with reports that (imo) are embarrassing for Christianity is just too fine to have been a complete concoction......

There's a lot of detail in The Wizard of Oz, not to mention Alice in Wonderland. gMk is rather barren in comparison.

 

[oldbadger]

Here's a blurb from Amazon.com

"This groundbreaking book looks at one of the greatest cover-ups in history and dares to think the unthinkable about Christianity - that it was in fact a Jewish Mystery School modelled on the ancient Pagan Mysteries. The myth of Dionysus bears startling resemblances to the the story of Jesus Christ. It compares with the biblical story in the following ways: * Dionysus is God made flesh and is hailed as the 'Saviour of Mankind' and the 'Son of God' * His father is God and and his mother is a mortal virgin who afterwards becomes worshipped as the 'Mother of God' * He is born in a cowshed * He drives out demons, turns water into wine and and raises people from the dead * He rides triumphantly into town while people wave palms to honour him The date revered by the first Christians as Jesus' birthday was originally that of Dionysus, also the three day Spring Festival of Dionysus celebrating his death and resurrection coincides with the Christian festival of Easter. The last Supper and the Eucharist are also parallel Dionysian rites. This is not common knowledge as the story was a closely guarded secret of the Pagan mysteries. Secondly the evidence of Christianity's pagan roots were systematically covered up the Roman Church."​

Also, from the "book description" on another Amazon.com site.

"This astonishing book completely undermines the traditional history of Christianity that has been perpetuated for centuries by the Church. Drawing on the cutting edge of modern scholarship, authors Tim Freke and Peter Gandy present overwhelming evidence that the Jesus of the New Testament is a mythical figure.

Far from being eyewitness accounts, as is traditionally held, the Gospels are actually Jewish adaptations of ancient Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting godman Osiris-Dionysus. The supernatural story of Jesus is not the history of a miraculous Messiah, but a carefully crafted spiritual allegory designed to guide initiates on a journey of mystical discovery.

A little more than a century ago most people believed that the strange story of Adam and Eve was history; today it is understood to be a myth. Within a few decades, Freke and Gandy argue, we will likewise be amazed that the fabulous story of God incarnate -- who was born of a virgin, who turned water into wine, and who rose from the dead -- could have been interpreted as anything but a profound parable."​

Here's a Kindle Book sampling. The book doesn't have an introduction, but starts right off with page one, which you can bring up.

Great Info. Thankyou.
Now, let's get into this. I've only got ten minutes so I'll just take the first intro....ok? I'm not putting quotes around each section, I'll just make it as clear as I can....
Dionysus is God made flesh and is hailed as the 'Saviour of Mankind' and the 'Son of God' *
No mention of 'Son of God' in Mark. 'Son of man' was a regular expression.
His father is God and and his mother is a mortal virgin who afterwards becomes worshipped as the 'Mother of God' *
Nope........ not in Mark.
He is born in a cowshed * He drives out demons, turns water into wine and and raises people from the dead *
No cowsheds, No free wine, and no Lazarus rubbish in Mark
He rides triumphantly into town while people wave palms to honour him
Oh come on! Three huge festivals each year, bringing ion wealth for every ciotizen of Jerusalem, plus massive revenue for the authorities. They probably waved everybody into the city, and laid palm leaves down often. This just got adapted for Jesus. Quite clever, really. It probably happened!
The date revered by the first Christians as Jesus' birthday was originally that of Dionysus, also the three day Spring Festival of Dionysus celebrating his death and resurrection coincides with the Christian festival of Easter.
We don't know when Jesus was borne, and no doubt the Christian festival got reversed into the above dates. What has that got tio do with Jesus the carpenter?
The last Supper and the Eucharist are also parallel Dionysian rites.
I doubt that Jesus could afford to hire a premises for a supper. This could well be an exaggeration, but he p[robably did drink/eat with his followers one last time.
This is not common knowledge as the story was a closely guarded secret of the Pagan mysteries. Secondly the evidence of Christianity's pagan roots were systematically covered up the Roman Church."
Skwim........... please please please separate Christian goggledegook from Jesus the handyman and healer, who picked up JtB;'s mission and failed with it, all in about 11 months.

Waddayasay?

 

[oldbadger]

There's a lot of detail in The Wizard of Oz, not to mention Alice in Wonderland. gMk is rather barren in comparison.

Well, anytime you want to found a new religion, which would you prefer......... the Wizard, or Alice?

I wish I'd thought of that line when I was working.......
'So how come that the defendant's explanation and answers were so finelydetailed?'
Old-B to Jury.....:- 'Ah yes......... a perfect example of Alice-in-Wonderland syndrome!'

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, anytime you want to found a new religion, which would you prefer......... the Wizard, or Alice?

I've always felt that Humpty Dumpty had a way with words.

 

[JoStories]

His hypothesis is quite laughable and easily refuted.

Thanks outhouse. I thought that was what I said before jay cropped my post. One cannot accept his theory because of the obvious bias. And the omission of so many more references.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

One cannot accept his theory because of the obvious bias. And the omission of so many more references.

To what specific [Price] theory are you referring?

I apologize in advance if this was made clear in your communications with @outhouse -- I've pretty much had him on my ignore list since the invention of indoor plumbing.​

 

[steeltoes]

I've read an opinion on another forum that says the same thing. Very interesting, but I wanna know who took over for Paul from the Jews to persecute the Church? Seems the Jews gave up and Rome took over killing the Disicples/Apostles.
Any one know?

I don't know.

 

[oldbadger]

Here's a blurb from Amazon.com

OK..... I'm back. Let's look at some more....[/QUOTE]

He drives out demons,
Yep.......... The Hysterical, the Epileptic and the Frightened could all have appeared to be treated or helped in some way by Jesus. Some people can 'stun' hysterical fits to a standstill.... I've seen it down...... Hell, I've done it myself. Straight up.....
He rides triumphantly into town while people wave palms to honour him
Already covered....... the citizens welcomed everybody and their money into the city at these feasts.
"This astonishing book completely undermines the traditional history of Christianity
Oldbadger nashes teeth........ Friggin' history of Christianity is undermined..... not Jesus!
Tim Freke and Peter Gandy present overwhelming evidence that the Jesus of the New Testament is a mythical figure.
Bulldust....... they probably concentrate on early Matthew, Luke and John.
Far from being eyewitness accounts, as is traditionally held, the Gospels are actually Jewish adaptations of ancient Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting godman Osiris-Dionysus. The supernatural story of Jesus is not the history of a miraculous Messiah, but a carefully crafted spiritual allegory designed to guide initiates on a journey of mystical discovery.
....... using the Jesus of G-Mark as a carrier.

Yes...... the SUPERNATURAL story of Jesus is a spin, but the natural story as told in G-Mark (after the hyperbole is thinned out) is hard to eliminate....​