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Did Jesus actually exist as a historical figure?

Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Vishvavajra said:
The mention of James' execution in Josephus, yes. The consensus is that it's probably genuine and probably refers to James, the brother of that Jesus. That provides supporting evidence for the existence of Jesus and the fact that he had a brother named James.
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This is particularly true when one realizes that the intended audience was neither Christian nor Jewish, but literate Greeks, and the passage suggests that Josephus, writing a mere six decades after the claimed crucifixion of Yeshua, believed that "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" was more than adequate to make clear precisely which James was being described, and he apparently did so with little fear of being contradicted by Roman authorities.
 
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steeltoes

Junior member
Jayhawker Soule said:
This is particularly true when one realizes that the intended audience was neither Christian nor Jewish, but literate Greeks, and the passage suggests that Josephus, writing a mere six decades after the claimed crucifixion of Yeshua, believed that "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" was more than adequate to make clear precisely which James was being described, and he apparently did so with little fear of being contradicted by Roman authorities.
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It might refer to a brother James of the high priest Jesus ben Damneus we read of in the same narrative. Context is a b****, I know, especially when we are on a quest to convince ourselves of something.
 
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oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Vishvavajra said:
Josephus's other mention of Jesus is problematic: it's either entirely forged by later Christians or, more likely, been heavily corrupted by them, or possibly by the interpolation of their marginal notes. It's not entirely useless, but by itself it doesn't prove anything. If we can separate Josephus's genuine comments from the interpolations, it might serve as supporting evidence.
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This mention, above, is quite useful, even if Christians rewrote the whole entry! :)
The point is, that the entry was placed amongst other references to insurrectionists, troublemakers, etc etc....... a position which Christians would never have chosen. So I like the 'space' and its position as indirect evidence that Josephus did write about Jesus.. :)
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
steeltoes said:
What would we do without biblical scholars telling us that The Bible stories have historical merit? We'd be left believing that we are reading fiction, and then where would we be? Oh my, what a dilemma we would all be in for not believing that Jesus was a really truly old human being that really walked the earth like the story says. Thank goodness for biblical scholars that save us from ourselves.
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Hi Steeltoes!!!!...... :D
Dipping those toes in the water again, I see..... :D
 
J

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Of course not. You said ...
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… which is clearly much, much different.
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Please note the adjectives included in my response. I said 'most likely' which can mean there is variance. I had studied this for a very long time. I don't expect anyone to agree with me but I can say that my opinion is shared with quite a few others.
 
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Awoon

Well-Known Member
steeltoes said:
Why are we constantly being told that Jesus existed? Is there a point to be made?
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The point is you are a Sinner and Jesus is the only savior for Humankind. So, why didn't Jesus save the people on the Germanwings plane that crashed?
 
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steeltoes

Junior member
Awoon said:
The point is you are a Sinner and Jesus is the only savior for Humankind. So, why didn't Jesus save the people on the Germanwings plane that crashed?
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I don't care to make light of those that lost their lives. As far as being a sinner, yes, I am indeed a sinner in the eyes of those that have found the historical Jesus.
 
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Awoon

Well-Known Member
steeltoes said:
I don't care to make light of those that lost their lives. As far as being a sinner, yes, I am indeed a sinner in the eyes of those that have found the historical Jesus.
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Where is the historical Jesus found? He doesn't even have a death date, just a holiday that changes every year.
 
Vishvavajra

Vishvavajra

Active Member
steeltoes said:
Why are we constantly being told that Jesus existed? Is there a point to be made?
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Here it's nothing more than responses to the question posed by the OP. Also, from a historical/prosopographical perspective, whether individual people existed or not is interesting in itself. The desire to piece together the evidence and reconstruct the past doesn't need any special justification. Of course, we can still never be certain of some things. So even if we accept that there was a historical Jesus of Nazareth, there's a very limited amount we can say about him.

Some Christians are under the impression that the historicity of Jesus is a big deal, but I'd disagree with that and posit that the teachings ought to be able to stand on their own either way. Usually those are people who have been led to believe that his death accomplished something dreadfully important, which wouldn't have been accomplished if it weren't demonstrably historical fact. I call that a poor choice of hill to die on, obviously some disagree. :D
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Vishvavajra said:
Here it's nothing more than responses to the question posed by the OP. Also, from a historical/prosopographical perspective, whether individual people existed or not is interesting in itself. The desire to piece together the evidence and reconstruct the past doesn't need any special justification. Of course, we can still never be certain of some things. So even if we accept that there was a historical Jesus of Nazareth, there's a very limited amount we can say about him.
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Precisely … and kudos for dropping the term prosopographical in polite conversation.
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
steeltoes said:
Hi oldbadger, yes, it appears that we are on another quest to convince ourselves of something.
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Hi,,,,,,,
Nah!.......... That's you!
Me? I'm looking for whatever I might find.
You? You've got an agenda! It shows itself so clearly in a former post.
Like I said......... I look for whatever I might find...... Oh....... and Jesus never got to be old....... :D
Steeltoes:- What would we do without biblical scholars telling us that The Bible stories have historical merit? We'd be left believing that we are reading fiction, and then where would we be? Oh my, what a dilemma we would all be in for not believing that Jesus was a really truly old human being that really walked the earth like the story says. Thank goodness for biblical scholars that save us from ourselves.
Click to expand...
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
steeltoes said:
As far as being a sinner, yes, I am indeed a sinner in the eyes of those that have found the historical Jesus.
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Lordy....... but this is fun....... just like the old threads :D
You're losing your touch. HJ researchers are very often not Christians.
You've definitely lost the plot...........!!
You're mixing some of us up with religious folks.

See? Your agenda has set solid and trapped you into a weak position. You can't win anything like that. :D
 
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