Did Jesus Claim to be God?

[atpollard]

There is not a single, unequivocal, statement in the bible, even when it has been highly changed and corrupted, where Jesus proclaims himself to be God. It's as simple as that. And I think many people on this thread have pointed that out. Having said this, what about the concept of the trinity?

We are led to believe by Christian preachers that Jesus the person, the Holy spirit and the Father, are all one. A three part representation of one God, not three separate Gods. Yet, when Jesus is asked about the last hour, he says: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

If Jesus IS the Father, should he not know the answer to this question?

Just to be clear, the doctrine of the Trinity states that
The Father IS God.
The Son (Jesus) IS God.
The Holy Spirit IS God.
The Father IS NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son IS NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Father or the Son.

This is not a topic to discuss the Trinity in detail, I just wanted to correct your false statements about what the doctrine claims.
So Jesus is not the Father.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Just to be clear, the doctrine of the Trinity states that
The Father IS God.
The Son (Jesus) IS God.
The Holy Spirit IS God.
The Father IS NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son IS NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Father or the Son.

This is not a topic to discuss the Trinity in detail, I just wanted to correct your false statements about what the doctrine claims.
So Jesus is not the Father.

But that's not true if Christianity claims to only believe in ONE God,which I know for a fact it does. So there are three different Gods?

And why is this not a place to discuss this? Considering we are talking about Jesus' claim of divinity in the Bible and the trinity is central to that belief. But if you don't feel comfortable discussing this here, we can discuss it via DM ?

 

[atpollard]

But that's not true if Christianity claims to only believe in ONE God,which I know for a fact it does. So there are three different Gods?

And why is this not a place to discuss this? Considering we are talking about Jesus' claim of divinity in the Bible and the trinity is central to that belief. But if you don't feel comfortable discussing this here, we can discuss it via DM ?

The doctrine of the Trinity is complex and will draw argument and opinion like flies to a corpse, drowning out all other conversation.
I just didn't want to pull the discussion far off topic with a defense of the Trinity.
(and then a defense against the overwhelming rush of anti-Trinitarian posts that will seek to explain why I have misinterpreted all of the verses that orthodox Christianity has used to support the doctrine of the Trinity since before the birth of Mohammad).

 

[atpollard]

Wikipedia to give you a quick overview:

Trinity

 

[Intojoy]

The question is wrong.
It has to be determined if the Jewish Messiah of the Old Testament is the God - Man - King.

According to Judaism, no.

According to Messianic Jews like Dr Fruchtenbaum, yes Yeshua (Jesus) is the God Man King of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Therefore the biblical question should be:

Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? Did Jesus claim to be the Jewish Messiah?

Yes

 

[moorea944]

Wikipedia to give you a quick overview:

Trinity

And this is the stuff false doctrine is made of.... Ever wonder what if the counsel of Nicea got it wrong? I mean the Apostles didnt believe in a trinity. The people in the OT didnt believe in a trinitarian God. This just goes to show you that Christianity has gone astray from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[atpollard]

And this is the stuff false doctrine is made of.... Ever wonder what if the counsel of Nicea got it wrong? I mean the Apostles didnt believe in a trinity. The people in the OT didnt believe in a trinitarian God. This just goes to show you that Christianity has gone astray from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

... but at lest I didn't invest too much time explaining it.
Wikipedia is good enough to allow someone to discover that Jesus is not the Father (according to the doctrine).
Whether it is right or wrong.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No. Does it matter?

Well, please read 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 (Notice verse 8). For those who believe the Scriptures, it matters!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And this is the stuff false doctrine is made of.... Ever wonder what if the counsel of Nicea got it wrong? I mean the Apostles didnt believe in a trinity. The people in the OT didnt believe in a trinitarian God. This just goes to show you that Christianity has gone astray from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

You know what's amazing to me, moorea?
That so many reputable sources call the Trinity "a mystery," yet here are all these people trying to explain it! If it's a mystery (which it is), it's inexplicable! But that don't stop them!

As Jesus said at John 4:22, "We worship what we know."
And the next verse, John 4:23: "The true worshippers will worship the Father."
It goes through one ear and out the other!

 

[moorea944]

You know what's amazing to me, moorea?
That so many reputable sources call the Trinity "a mystery," yet here are all these people trying to explain it! If it's a mystery (which it is), it's inexplicable! But that don't stop them!

As Jesus said at John 4:22, "We worship what we know."
And the next verse, John 4:23: "The true worshippers will worship the Father."
It goes through one ear and out the other!

So true.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, please read 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 (Notice verse 8). For those who believe the Scriptures, it matters!

For it is indeed just of God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to the afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
​

I don't know why scripture posters are not familar with articles. Nonetheless, why they quote to make a point they can say in their own words. Takes out interpreting scripture from two different view points when we can only use the one being discussed.

God the Father has sent God the Son to take on the afflictions of God the Father's Children in order to save them. This is to avoid vengange or punishment from God the Father and God the Son.

When Jesus speaks, He speaks for His Father. The terminology and context in scripture shows that Jesus is refering to Himself in relation to his Fathers: always has.

To misinterpret his relationship with his father as being his father is like mistinterpreting the relationship with my mother and saying I am my mother instead. Logically, does makes no sense.

To put it more bluntly: Stating Jesus is God is like stating bread and wine is Jesus.

How can Christians believe and understand the former but say the latter is a metaphor?

That, and where does it say Jesus IS god? It's all interpretation. Once you get passed that its your interpretation, then throwing scriptures without comment will be a waste of time. Put your comments with it. Also, make sure its respectful

Scripture does not speak for itself.


Edit I forgot.

Why does it matter if Jesus is God or not?

If the Father sent Jesus as an image and representation of Himself, calling him the Word (which is his Father's Words not Jesus'), then why question god for this method of salvation?

 

[Muffled]

There is not a single, unequivocal, statement in the bible, even when it has been highly changed and corrupted, where Jesus proclaims himself to be God. It's as simple as that. And I think many people on this thread have pointed that out. Having said this, what about the concept of the trinity?

We are led to believe by Christian preachers that Jesus the person, the Holy spirit and the Father, are all one. A three part representation of one God, not three separate Gods. Yet, when Jesus is asked about the last hour, he says: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

If Jesus IS the Father, should he not know the answer to this question?

I believe that does not prove that He isn't God.

I believe it is not that simple and there is plenty of evidence that convinces me that it is not that simple.

I believe the reason is simple God will not always be in the form of Jesus and the word know here means to experience not to be cognizant of.

 

[Muffled]

But that's not true if Christianity claims to only believe in ONE God,which I know for a fact it does. So there are three different Gods?

And why is this not a place to discuss this? Considering we are talking about Jesus' claim of divinity in the Bible and the trinity is central to that belief. But if you don't feel comfortable discussing this here, we can discuss it via DM ?

I believe you totally misunderstand what is being said. We believe that and believe He is one God so evidently we do believe it to be true.

I believe there is one God and the post you are referring to made that quite clear.

 

[Muffled]

And this is the stuff false doctrine is made of.... Ever wonder what if the counsel of Nicea got it wrong? I mean the Apostles didnt believe in a trinity. The people in the OT didnt believe in a trinitarian God. This just goes to show you that Christianity has gone astray from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

I believe Jesus believes in a Trinity.

 

[moorea944]

I believe Jesus believes in a Trinity.

How's that? Why is it that if you spoke to a Jew today about the trinity, they would think that is absolutely absurd!! Why, if they are God's chosen people?.... Wouldnt they conform to the trinity of a multiple God? No one in scripture believed in it... You would figure that, that would be staple to their beliefs...

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

I believe you totally misunderstand what is being said. We believe that and believe He is one God so evidently we do believe it to be true.

I believe there is one God and the post you are referring to made that quite clear.

This is what I originally quotes:

Just to be clear, the doctrine of the Trinity states that
The Father IS God.
The Son (Jesus) IS God.
The Holy Spirit IS God.
The Father IS NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son IS NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Father or the Son.

I'm being told that The Father, The Son and The Spirit are 3 separate entities, right? Considering the doctrine states they are not the same as one another. So, 3 separate entities but ONE God? How does that make sense?

 

[outhouse]

But that's not true if Christianity claims to only believe in ONE God,which I know for a fact it does.

Its true by their methodology


Its like an arm, the right arm is not the left arm and neither is the neck, of the god.


Now I don't like it or accept it either, but it is their math.

 

[outhouse]

I believe Jesus believes in a Trinity.

The concept factually did not exist in his time.

It would have been blasphemy for Jesus a Jew to follow such.

The trinity is admitted to being a man made concept much like all other text.

 

[Muffled]

The concept factually did not exist in his time.

It would have been blasphemy for Jesus a Jew to follow such.

The trinity is admitted to being a man made concept much like all other text.

i do not believe God speaks blasphemy against Himself but He certainly is capable of speaking against the false concepts of men.

 

[Muffled]

This is what I originally quotes:

Just to be clear, the doctrine of the Trinity states that
The Father IS God.
The Son (Jesus) IS God.
The Holy Spirit IS God.
The Father IS NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son IS NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Father or the Son.

I'm being told that The Father, The Son and The Spirit are 3 separate entities, right? Considering the doctrine states they are not the same as one another. So, 3 separate entities but ONE God? How does that make sense?

It depends on what you consider an entity. A concept can be an entity but it has no substance. The Trinity is one substance: Spirit.