Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[Audie]

Not quite. It is similar to a negative.

"Something like" allows aawful lot of interpretive
leeway.

As for why make a fake, really now.

These "believers"! Dont they know the history
of their faith?

 

[whirlingmerc]

So you say.
So do you believe the 8 witnesses to the gold plates?
I mean, who would make up such a story, get with others
to swear before god, to a lie?

No fair just making something up, now.

I do not believe in the eleven witnesses to the gold plates because for many reasons not the least of which their stories don't add up

Did the Eleven Witnesses Actually See the Gold Plates?

"...Despite the rather lucid description given by these men, it appears that their familiarity with the plates is not as it first appears. Did the witnesses actually see physical plates with their naked eyes? Or was this some sort of mystical experience that involved “seeing” an object that was not really there?..."

 

[Audie]

I prefer 'Taste and see that the Lord is good!"

but the preponderance of scholars do believe Jesus died, the tomb became empty and the apostles were convinced Jesus rose

Kinda hard to lick or bite god, but
the stories stink. Noahs ark, indeed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do not believe in the eleven witnesses to the gold plates because for many reasons not the least of which their stories don't add up

Did the Eleven Witnesses Actually See the Gold Plates?

By that standard you should not accept Bible stories either. For example Luke's nativity, who buys that tale.

 

[Audie]

I do not believe in the eleven witnesses to the gold plates because for many reasons not the least of which their stories don't add up

Did the Eleven Witnesses Actually See the Gold Plates?

What a surprise that you would go to a dedicated anti mormon
site!
Total intellectual dishonesty.
Do you go to Dawkins for info on Jesus?
Geologists for insight on the six day poof creation?
We guess not!

And who would guess you would run from any
similarities to your "jesus" story,
OR
Run from the q about why they would tell
tales that are not true, but your jesus folk
would never make up a story. Thin ice
there, best to get away.

Heck, we have the exact untranslated, signed
original for the gold book people.

 

[Audie]

By that standard you should not accept Bible stories either. For example Luke's nativity, who buys that tale.

Believers. They believe things.
Just not science.

 

[InChrist]

No the bible says his body was as when he was crucified which is why he tells doubting Thomas to stick his hands into his bail scars and where he had been stabbed his wound was open. If his nail scars were really open and his stab wound as he said he would be bleeding ro death.........

Doesn't sound like Jesus is bleeding to death in the accounts below. That idea especially makes no sense considering He already died and rose in victory over death.

And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.” Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them.
Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight. Luke 24:24-31

Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken. Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, “Who are You?”—knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish. This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead. John 21:11-14

 

[whirlingmerc]

What a surprise that you would go to a dedicated anti mormon
site!
Total intellectual dishonesty.
Do you go to Dawkins for info on Jesus?
Geologists for insight on the six day poof creation?
We guess not!

And who would guess you would run from any
similarities to your "jesus" story,
OR
Run from the q about why they would tell
tales that are not true, but your jesus folk
would never make up a story. Thin ice
there, best to get away.

Heck, we have the exact untranslated, signed
original for the gold book people.

Not at all.... I have a problem with someone using divination (which the Bible forbids) to find 'a book' inspired by 'an angel' which declares all other churches have been corrupted

and then goes and joins a methodist church where Joseph Smith meets his wife (after being told to stay away from these corrupt churches)

It doesn't ring true

 

[whirlingmerc]

By that standard you should not accept Bible stories either. For example Luke's nativity, who buys that tale.

In all the stories of Luke when they spoke of eyewitnesses they were indeed eyewitnesses, many of whom were women, an unlikely group to make up a story about. But Luke being a medical doctor also has the most medical details which is a bit of internal evidence supporting it was indeed written by a medical person

And the eyewitnesses involved things like healing, raising the dead, feeding thousands, things one could see and touch and not at all like the claims of Joseph Smith

 

[Riders]

Doesn't sound like Jesus is bleeding to death in the accounts below. That idea especially makes no sense considering He already died and rose in victory over death.

And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.” Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them.
Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight. Luke 24:24-31

Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken. Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, “Who are You?”—knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish. This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead. John 21:11-14

Thats right the bible does NOT say he was bleeding to death which makes the bible wrong. cant raise him from the dead with his wounds and all as it said without him bleeding to death.His body was chopped meat.

Either God raised him with a new body which would make Jesus not the same person or he raised with his wounds and him bleeding all over the place it does not make any scientific sense for Jesus to be walking around with his dead crucified body.

God is suppose to be the God of life not death, the fact that the bible says God raised Jesus with his crucified dead body is a sick thing for the bible to say. Its amoral.

 

[Riders]

In all the stories of Luke when they spoke of eyewitnesses they were indeed eyewitnesses, many of whom were women, an unlikely group to make up a story about. But Luke being a medical doctor also has the most medical details which is a bit of internal evidence supporting it was indeed written by a medical person

Theres no proof of any witnesses ..............

 

[InChrist]

You guys would have so much more credibility if
we did not constantly see you guys posting such
absurd nonsense when you post what you
know about science.

Why do you find it so absurd? Science and/or human ability to understand everything about life, death, or this universe is ever changing as new information as knowledge is discovered. What was thought to be absurd 20, 30, 50, or 200 hundred years ago is accepted and understood today. I don't see what is so absurd about realizing that human knowledge is limited because humans are finite while a Creator knowledge is infinite and some things He has revealed which are beyond our understanding.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Theres no proof of any witnesses ..............

Actually even some Jewish sources agree Jesus did miraculous things like healing but was a trickster.

And there is also a claim that yes the body was missing but a gardener named Judas moved it.

Inadvertently the enemies of Jesus become witnesses since as they said about Lady Macbeth 'methinks she protests too much!"

 

[Riders]

Actually even some Jewish sources agree Jesus did miraculous things like healing but was a trickster.

And there is also a claim that yes the body was missing but a gardener named Judas moved it.

Inadvertently the enemies of Jesus become witnesses since as they said about Lady Macbeth 'methinks she protests too much!"

Theres no proof for any of that..But if you have proof provide the source and link.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Thats right the bible does NOT say he was bleeding to death which makes the bible wrong. cant raise him from the dead with his wounds and all as it said without him bleeding to death.His body was chopped meat.

Either God raised him with a new body which would make Jesus not the same person or he raised with his wounds and him bleeding all over the place it does not make any scientific sense for Jesus to be walking around with his dead crucified body.

God is suppose to be the God of life not death, the fact that the bible says God raised Jesus with his crucified dead body is a sick thing for the bible to say. Its amoral.

The Bible even says 'the sea gave up its dead' so when God raises the dead he does it anyway he wants If you're lost at sea you're fish food.... but that doesn't stop God either.

 

[Riders]

Theres no proof for any of that..But if you have proof provide the source and link.

Being a trickster does not count as proof There is some proof in Josephus account that a guy named Jesus lived, I submit to that but the trickster is not proof.

Proof is proof he was crucified and risen.

 

[Riders]

The Bible even says 'the sea gave up its dead' so when God raises the dead he does it anyway he wants If you're lost at sea you're fish food.... but that doesn't stop God either.

I was assured you would say God did a magic trick. But I have as of yet to see God magically raising people from the dead.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Theres no proof for any of that..But if you have proof provide the source and link.

It's from the Toledoth

An anti-Christian document called Toledoth Jesu proposed that Jesus was initially buried in Joseph’s tomb. But when a gardener named Juda heard about the disciples’ plans to steal the body of Jesus, he removed the body from the tomb and buried it in another grave. He informed the Jewish leaders and sold the body to them for 30 pieces of silver. Christ’s body was then dragged through the streets of Jerusalem.7

This document would be somewhat disconcerting to many Christians had it been from the first century, but no scholar places its source material any earlier than the fourth century, and it probably was not penned until the tenth century. Jewish scholars have largely rejected this book as well because its contents are highly offensive and they have traditionally taught a different view. And like the other views critiqued in this article, it does not provide any explanation for the appearances of the risen Lord to the disciples, James, and Paul.

see The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: The Body Was Moved

 

[InChrist]

We do not doubt that you believe. It is what believers
do; they believe things. Singers sing, believers believe.

Lookee this! The Book of Mormon has to be true!!

The Testimony of Eight Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun.

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen.

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

Maybe they did witness some kind of plates, I doubt it, but I can't be sure, I really don't doubt that Joseph Smith was visited by an angel called Moroni (a demon posing as an angel of light), since he Joseph was heavily into occult practices and a prime candidate for demonic deception. Having come out of Mormonism myself in the past I am all the more aware how easily we as humans can be deceived to believe a lie. All the more reason I see the scriptures as necessary for discernment and to test all teachings, philosophies, etc. by to determine the truth.

 

[Audie]

Not at all.... I have a problem with someone using divination (which the Bible forbids) to find 'a book' inspired by 'an angel' which declares all other churches have been corrupted

and then goes and joins a methodist church where Joseph Smith meets his wife (after being told to stay away from these corrupt churches)

It doesn't ring true

Of course it does not. It is a ridiculous story,
tho we still note you went to an anti mormon
story
And
That the Jesus story is just as unbelievable,
even discounting things like the obvious fake
"nativity" story.

I do understand that you are committed to it though.
I have an Uncle who is still a most dedicated Maoist.

You would not either of you be intetested in honest
and thoughtful counterpoint or risk of going
capitalist roader.