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Did Jesus preach with intent to start a new religion?

outhouse

Atheistically
, I'd say that Jesus was trying to reformulate Judaism -- to change its stress from legalistic adherence to rite and ritual and focus more on a quasi spiritual notion of "doing good."

All im asking is for you to substantiate this claim.

To me it shows a complete lack of knowledge on first century Judaism, but knowing your orthodox, I would say your interpretation of first century Judaism is not what others see or teach outside of faith.

Your description fits almost all Aramaic Galilean peasants or Zealots, who often did not have money to travel to the temple. Let alone follow what the Hellenistic temple cult followed.

"Doing good" was more then likely rhetorical objective to make the movement look less violent then Judaism as some of these books were written to and for a Roman audience.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
Hey, You guys (gals?) keep this up. I'm gleaning a lot of info from all this.:D
outhouse is exceptional in knowledge and communicating gathered knowledge.
My mind dictates that I respect that.
I don't have to agree but I must respect.
 
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Unification

Well-Known Member
What Jesus preached: "TRUTH and LIFE."

Truth: that which is, being in accord with reality. The opposite of truth is all lies.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You don't know Moses either, and have no evidence that he existed.
That's true. But every single one of my ancestors insist that he did exist and seem to believe that their [great-great...] grandparents actually saw him. They don't seem to feel the same positive feelings about Jesus.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
That's true. But every single one of my ancestors insist that he did exist and seem to believe that their [great-great...] grandparents actually saw him. They don't seem to feel the same positive feelings about Jesus.

It doesn't matter if they existed as literal people or not. We live now. The same truth is behind all of the messages.

Did/do they insist the literal exodus happened too?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
All im asking is for you to substantiate this claim.

To me it shows a complete lack of knowledge on first century Judaism, but knowing your orthodox, I would say your interpretation of first century Judaism is not what others see or teach outside of faith.

Your description fits almost all Aramaic Galilean peasants or Zealots, who often did not have money to travel to the temple. Let alone follow what the Hellenistic temple cult followed.

"Doing good" was more then likely rhetorical objective to make the movement look less violent then Judaism as some of these books were written to and for a Roman audience.
First century Judaism as I understand it (specifically, Pharisaic Judaism as evidenced through the mishna) was driven by adherence to a complex legal code derived by the rabbinic authority. Jesus, by rejecting that authority and asserting that there are underlying themes which supersede the written code (such as in Matt 15:11) was showing that being good was more important than slavishly following a set of legal rules. As such, when it suited him, he was "trying to reformulate Judaism -- to change its stress from legalistic adherence to rite and ritual and focus more on a quasi spiritual notion of "doing good." "
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
First century Judaism as I understand it (specifically, Pharisaic Judaism as evidenced through the mishna) was driven by adherence to a complex legal code derived by the rabbinic authority. Jesus, by rejecting that authority and asserting that there are underlying themes which supersede the written code (such as in Matt 15:11) was showing that being good was more important than slavishly following a set of legal rules. As such, when it suited him, he was "trying to reformulate Judaism -- to change its stress from legalistic adherence to rite and ritual and focus more on a quasi spiritual notion of "doing good." "
You shouldn't think of first century Judaism as a monolithic culture. There was diversity of opinion within Judaism then, just as there is today. This was especially true within the diaspora which is where Jesus and most of his early followers were from. Jesus would not be the only or even the first to criticize an overly legalistic interpretation of scripture (if that is really what he did).
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
You shouldn't think of first century Judaism as a monolithic culture. There was diversity of opinion within Judaism then, just as there is today. This was especially true within the diaspora which is where Jesus and most of his early followers were from. Jesus would not be the only or even the first to criticize an overly legalistic interpretation of scripture (if that is really what he did).
I have no doubt that Judaism was fractured -- the big three (Pharisaic, Sadduccee and Essene) weren't even monolithic within their own sects but Jesus seems to be reflecting on the oral tradition of laws as represented by the Pharisaic voices he clashes with. And he does present alternatives to the understanding presented by that particular element of Judaism.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
The idea that 1st century Judaism was intensely legalistic and that Jesus was a radical break from that is mostly Christian propaganda.

Some Jews were legalists, others were moderate, and still others had an esoteric bent and regarded the Law as an outward manifestation of certain deeper spiritual principles. The early Christians were obviously in the latter camp, but they weren't alone. In fact the Pharisees were pretty liberal too, despite their unfair presentation in the Gospels. I'd call them moderates. In any case they were far from the legalists that they are often accused of being.

The later prophetic tradition was already well on its way to developing a worldview in which moral principles trumped the letter of the law. See Hosea, for example. Jesus can be seen as the logical extension of that. Note that he doesn't repudiate the Law because in his mind it's the principle rather than the letter. Even his own moral teachings are meant to hint at deeper principles, not just enumerate rules for people to follow (though try telling that to a lot of Christians today).

As for the OP, I think it's pretty clear Jesus had no intention to form a separate religion called Christianity. He belonged to a particular strand of 1st-century Judaism, probably harbored hopes that other Jews would come around to his way of seeing things, and his followers continued to regard themselves as Jews for some time after his death. The Judaism of the time was pretty diverse at any rate. In the end the split was probably more political than religious as such. And once it happened, and once Christianity became an almost totally non-Jewish thing (i.e. populated by people with no background in Judaism whatsoever), the two sides of the family tree drifted very far apart and basically stopped talking to each other.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
How can you know this?
Sorry, I couldn't respond to you last night as it might make me cause you to desecrate the Sabbath. But my answer is that, if that were not so, I would not be Jewish. I know many Jews who do not believe these things and today their children and/or grandchildren are not Jewish. As a rule, I think it is clear that the people who feel most obligated to keep it in the faith are the ones who believe in it.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
No I don't think Jesus ever wanted a religion, once you organize the truth you kill it, just as it already has been
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Sorry, I couldn't respond to you last night as it might make me cause you to desecrate the Sabbath.
Thank you. That was very thoughtful!

That's true. But every single one of my ancestors insist that he did exist and ...
How can you know this?
But my answer is that, if that were not so, I would not be Jewish.
That may very well be why you believe what you believe as you do, but to believe and to know are not at all the same, and absolutely nobody knows what every single one of their ancestors believed.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Thank you. That was very thoughtful!

That may very well be why you believe what you believe as you do, but to believe and to know are not at all the same, and absolutely nobody knows what every single one of their ancestors believed.
How about this: the fact that I am Jewish is indicative of the fact that all my ancestors retained Jewish faith. Had they not, it is unlikely they would have had a part in my birth as the would not have married Jewish.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
How about this: the fact that I am Jewish is indicative of the fact that all my ancestors retained Jewish faith. Had they not, it is unlikely they would have had a part in my birth as the would not have married Jewish.
That also is not necessarily true, but I'm off topic … Sorry.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The idea that 1st century Judaism was intensely legalistic and that Jesus was a radical break from that is mostly Christian propaganda.
If you view the gospels as Christian propaganda then I guess this makes sense. Judaism (and, again, I am talking about the Pharisaic form of Judaism, the one which Jesus, while advocating in concept, is also disagreeing with very often in its practical form) was very legalistic. The talmudic discussions detail a level of law and practice which is demanding and highly stylized. To have someone use the talmudic method to show that adherence to laws of (for example) the sabbath need to be reformed and made less severe shows a break from the Pharisaic Judaism of the time.

Now, it could be said that his reformulation was designed to be a new version of "Pharisaic" Judaism with his interpretations as normative, or that his ideas were too radical and he was necessarily talking about abandoning the old labels and creating a new version of Judaism, but I don't think he had in mind the chucking out of Judaism per se and the creation of a completely new paradigm.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Jesus seems to be reflecting on the oral tradition of laws as represented by the Pharisaic voices he clashes with

Sorry he was clashing with the Hellenist part of the Pharisees, not he part that often sided with Zealots.


the big three

We have no size comparison, but the Hellenist who coined the phrase Zealot, seemed to refer to most all Aramaic Galilean peasants
 
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