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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
no. it's not the only method available.
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What other method do we have to describe God?
sadly, there are those who would equate that the position of theology as a position of power because they are under the assumption theology is the only method available.
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I don't equate "power" with "theology." But I wasn't even talking about theology. I was talking about metaphor.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
sojourner said:
Such as...? for example...?
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exactly.
if there isn't any...then why make blanket assessments that is supposed to be applied to all?

No, it isn't. It may be intuitive, however.
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yes it is.
intuition is speculation based on conviction contingent on a feeling.
many many people have suffered because of a third party's intuition.

don't get me wrong, i consider myself an intuitive person but i do not expect my intuitions to work for other people, this is a highly subjective experience
 
Heathen Hammer

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
sojourner said:
It depends on what you mean by "take literally." I assumed you meant "following the laws literally, as they appear on the pages." Of course those laws were meant to be literally followed, but not by all people in all places. These laws were meant for the ancient Hebrews, not for post-moderns. Or are you claiming that, since these things are written in the Bible, they can't be changed, adapted, edited, etc?
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the Hebrews for whom the laws were set down did not consider themselves 'ancient' nor did they believe that Time's passage would suddenly affect these laws in their regard until the End Time when all people came to be like them and had the laws 'written upon their hearts'.
At which time they would, in fact, be for all men.

You see, back then, those laws were for the Hebrews; in their world it was the Hebrews, and 'everyone else'. There was no Christian schism, and when it appeared, the 'ancient' Christians thought they were another Hebrew sect. It was not another religion; anybody you've ever quoted from scripture, was a Jew, thought he was a Jew, would say he was a Jew. Paul and his odd, not-from-Jesus shtick about teaching people outside the faith and spreading it to pagan areas and pagan people was the beginning of this separation from the legitimate [for them] Levitical laws. When Jesus made his statement about love God and love thyself and thy neighbor' and all that, he was NOT erasing the rest of the laws; he was observing that they distill down to those 2 ideas. Not that 'these two are now the only ones you need to worry about.'

Also note: 'not by all people in all places ' does not erase the fact that 'all the laws are supposed to be followed', which IS literal. Which again was the point, efforts by you to distract notwithstanding. At that point we were remarking on 'what parts of th Bible are literal and what parts need not be taken that way?'; and the laws do not fall into the latter category.

btw I didn't reply to your other longer post as you were just trolling and not worth a reply.
 
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sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
exactly.
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Which is why I said we have no other method to describe God.
yes it is.
intuition is speculation based on conviction contingent on a feeling.
many many people have suffered because of a third party's intuition.
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What does this have to do with metaphor claiming knowledge?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There was no Christian schism, and when it appeared, the 'ancient' Christians thought they were another Hebrew sect. It was not another religion
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For a very short time -- probably less than 2 years.
anybody you've ever quoted from scripture, was a Jew, thought he was a Jew, would say he was a Jew.
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Not so. Some of the epistles were not Jewish in origin. Luke was likely not Jewish. It's possible that John was not Jewish.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
'not by all people in all places ' does not erase the fact that 'all the laws are supposed to be followed', which IS literal.
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But not by not-Jews. Plus the fact, the laws remain malleable -- even for the Jews -- according to circumstance. Which is NOT literal.
At that point we were remarking on 'what parts of th Bible are literal and what parts need not be taken that way?'; and the laws do not fall into the latter category.
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Yes, they do.
btw I didn't reply to your other longer post as you were just trolling and not worth a reply.
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Whatever. I'm soo disappointed.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
sojourner said:
Which is why I said we have no other method to describe God.

What does this have to do with metaphor claiming knowledge?
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metaphor hasn't and doesn't cut it.

in order to have a metaphor one must first understand what it is they are
explaining.

establishing the boundaries of imagination is not possible.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
metaphor hasn't and doesn't cut it.
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Doesn't cut what, exactly? A descriptor? To the contrary, metaphor is highly descriptive.
in order to have a metaphor one must first understand what it is they are
explaining.
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Metaphor doesn't explain anything. Metaphor is descriptive. And we understand that it's God we're describing through metaphor.
establishing the boundaries of imagination is not possible.
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So? What's your point?
 
1robin

1robin

Christian/Baptist
waitasec said:
sure it is, it was through god ordaining his chosen to commit genocide to providing the ultimate sacrifice...when all along the sacrifice should have been established from the beginning.
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It would only indicate change if God killed without justification. He as God has the sovereign right to execute judgement on sin when he finds suffecient justification. What qualifies you to establish when a God you don't believe in should have revealed Christ's sacrifice?



i agree. ideas change and evolve.
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So? Look up progressive revelation if you are interested.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
sojourner said:
Doesn't cut what, exactly? A descriptor? To the contrary, metaphor is highly descriptive.

Metaphor doesn't explain anything. Metaphor is descriptive. And we understand that it's God we're describing through metaphor.

So? What's your point?
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you don't know what god is in order to make a metaphor about it, jeeez it's not that difficult.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
1robin said:
It would only indicate change if God killed without justification. He as God has the sovereign right to execute judgement on sin when he finds suffecient justification. What qualifies you to establish when a God you don't believe in should have revealed Christ's sacrifice?



So? Look up progressive revelation if you are interested.
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apologetics are disclaimers...for an evolving understanding of our experience...not what god is.
 
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