Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[sojourner]

Just wondering: Is it possible for someone to be a Christian and not believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Never claimed I didn't believe that.

Has your soteriological journey led you believe that there is more than one way to the Father than through Jesus Christ?

Not for the Xtian. But we aren't the only people on earth, are we.

Did Jesus lie when He said that He was way and that no man comes to the Father but through Him?

Nope. But then, Jesus was talking to believers.

(Note: I am not saying that everyone must believe in Jesus to be saved. That is another matter altogether. But Jesus is the judge and everyone will kneel before Him.)

No, but you were hoping to trap me in that little misstep of logic.
BTW: Look out for the logical banana peel under your foot.

I thought it was a fair rhetorical question based on your concept of a lying god/God. Maybe I should have used Woden instead.

"Celtic Xtian" is a far cry from Heathenry. Ask Heathenhammer if you don't believe me.
Or didn't they teach that distinction in "Cliff's Notes to Christian Membership?"

So...the Hebrews portrayed their relationship with God rather than having a well-defined one set forth by God Himself through direct communication with His prophets?

I have no doubt that there were prophets. Those prophets portrayed God in the way they understood God.

Hmmm... Maybe that's why they missed Jesus, the Messiah, when He came

Lots of good Jews are still waiting, because Jesus didn't fit the prophetic bill for the Messiah.

They didn't believe in God directly communicating with His people anymore than you (apparently) do.

depends what you mean by "direct communication."

Your disbelief has been made perfectly clear.

My disbelief in your abilities as an exegete and theologian? Grand! I was hoping you'd finally get that message LOUD AND CLEAR.

We are done here.

Splendid! Glad to hear you've achieved closure.

Enjoyed it.

I couldn't be more pleased.
Now you can depart with that signature, guess-what-I-did-last-night, grin on your face.
Off you go!

 

[Heathen Hammer]

doesn't matter...
the "christian" interpretation, whatever that is, has the license to edit the original proposition...how convenient...

Well, yes, we know that, but...

I thought it was a fair rhetorical question based on your concept of a lying god/God. Maybe I should have used Woden instead.

Using Odin wouldn't have been sensible, because for us it's quite alright to lie to those who lie to us, and Odin never claimed to never lie. The moral implication of your God lying, however, is rather heinous, given that he claims to be pure in all ways.

 

[Thief]

Well, yes, we know that, but...


Using Odin wouldn't have been sensible, because for us it's quite alright to lie to those who lie to us, and Odin never claimed to never lie. The moral implication of your God lying, however, is rather heinous, given that he claims to be pure in all ways.

Some people claim He is the source of all evil.
(I don't believe that)

But if He is....and is also the Almighty....
Then you and Odin are in a lot of trouble.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

That 'if' isn't born out by anything, hence why I don't worry. But fantasize about it all you like.

 

[waitasec]

That 'if' isn't born out by anything, hence why I don't worry. But fantasize about it all you like.

for such a small word it sure packs a punch

 

[sojourner]

Perhaps "good" and "evil" are not the diametrically opposed extremes we understand them to be. Perhaps they are "shades of grey," intersecting and bisecting from each other. If that's the case I don't see why "the Creator" couldn't be responsible for all of it. Further, I don't see why "good" couldn't be described, in part, as "bringer of life" -- whatever that means.

 

[Awoon]

And this defeats the content of my post?......how?

I'm not trying to defeat anything you write.

 

[JohnLeo]

God is all powerful, why make a man just to die to save everyone when he could just do it by thinking it happening?

Yes, I know I will get a lot of comments saying "Jesus is no man! He is God!" Well, technically isn't he a demigod? Half man half God? And even if you don't consider him to be, it just made people suffer from sadness, especially Mary the mother of Jesus.

Sorry, but no; Jesus did not have to die for our sins and he most certainly did not die for our sins. This whole notion points out the fatal flaw in Christian theology. Christians believ in two propositions: 1) As a man soweth, so shall he reap. and 2) Jesus died for our sins. A little analysis quickly reveals that these two propositions are mutually exclusive. If one is true, the other must be false. If Jesus died for our sins, then a man doesn't necessarily reap what he sows. It is possible for a person to lead a wicked life, repent at the last moment, pray to Jesus and thus escape the consequences of one's wickedness. This is patently false. It is a mockery of divine justice and violates the cosmic law of cause and effect. We will indeed reap what we sow. No more, no less. As ye measure it out to others, so will it be measured out to you. That is true. The idea that Jesus died for our sins is not.

 

[PolyHedral]

...violates the cosmic law of cause and effect.

Which one would that be?

 

[sojourner]

Which one would that be?

Section 91, subsection 12, paragraph 2:
"No eventuality shall be effected without explicit permission from a cause. In such cases as an eventuality is effected without proper authorization, it shall be confined without necessity of due process under the category, "supernatural anomaly" until such time as the necessary cause or causes can be determined, identified, and notified of the error.":areyoucra

 

[JohnLeo]

Which one would that be?

It's an immutable law of nature, similar to the law of gravity. If you fall off a building, you will suffer the consequences of that action. No one can suffer for you or mitigate the bad reult. All actions have consequences. Good actions bring about a good result. Bad actions bring about a bad result. The idea that Jesus or anyone else will interfere and render any natural law inoperative is simply untrue and a product of wishful thinking.

 

[mholder]

Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

No...even Moses and Abraham was accepted by God before Jesus ever walked the earth.

 

[Thief]

No...even Moses and Abraham was accepted by God before Jesus ever walked the earth.

And Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land.
Jesus was nailed.
And Muhammad was poisoned....
So I've heard.

And the lesser prophets and saints were badly treated.

I suppose that stands to reason.
If you talk like angels...and do as they do...
The rest of the crowd will see a need for upgrade.....a higher standard.

Most people are too busy.

 

[mholder]

And Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land.
Jesus was nailed.
And Muhammad was poisoned....
So I've heard.

And the lesser prophets and saints were badly treated.

I suppose the stands to reason.
If you talk like angels...and do as they do...
The rest of the crowd will see a need for upgrade.....a higher standard.

Most people are to busy.

Good points. I don't think people can use the excuse of "being busy"...since we are not talking about adding anything into their busy lives...but rather replacing existing approaches to life.

Wouldn't hurt the world if we all were united...focused more on our relationship on God and less on creating conflict because of our differences with each other. More people are worried about creating policy on how to include God into their lives than actually including God into their lives.

 

[1robin]

It's an immutable law of nature, similar to the law of gravity.

Spiritual law does not have the same governing dynamics as natural law.

If you fall off a building, you will suffer the consequences of that action

No one can suffer for you or mitigate the bad reult

Firemen do it everday.

All actions have consequences.

Now thats a revelation.

Good actions bring about a good result. Bad actions bring about a bad result.

Is that why they say the good die young? Is that why many terrorist acts succeed and the terrorists are never caught? Is that why Jesus called Peter satan and then let him start the church? Is that why the blessed Paul said he was the chief of sinners but was going to Heaven?

Define bad or good in any ultimate meaningful way more suffeciently than opinion without religion.

The idea that Jesus or anyone else will interfere and render any natural law inoperative is simply untrue and a product of wishful thinking.

I guess all those guys who jumped on grenades actually didn't save anyone and got postumous medals for nothing. I guess no one rode a damaged airplane into the ground to save the kids it would have killed. Intercession of one persons expense to help another is about the most universally praised act in human history. The greatest of these was on calvary.

Using natural law to determine spiritual concepts is meaningless. When you can't prove by empirical methods the everyday concepts of love, astetic value, or morality why do you think it is effective for supernatural events. Fonts and bolding do not make a bad idea a good one.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sorry, but no; Jesus did not have to die for our sins and he most certainly did not die for our sins. This whole notion points out the fatal flaw in Christian theology. Christians believ in two propositions: 1) As a man soweth, so shall he reap. and 2) Jesus died for our sins. A little analysis quickly reveals that these two propositions are mutually exclusive. If one is true, the other must be false. If Jesus died for our sins, then a man doesn't necessarily reap what he sows. It is possible for a person to lead a wicked life, repent at the last moment, pray to Jesus and thus escape the consequences of one's wickedness. This is patently false. It is a mockery of divine justice and violates the cosmic law of cause and effect. We will indeed reap what we sow. No more, no less. As ye measure it out to others, so will it be measured out to you. That is true. The idea that Jesus died for our sins is not.

What does reaping what one sows have to do with Jesus dying for us ?

'Death-bed' repentance is not taught in Scripture.
A person to scheme he will deliberately sin until his last moments is kidding himself.
-Hebrews 10 v 26

None of us can unlock death's gates and resurrect oneself or resurrect another.
By perfect [sinless] Jesus dying faithfully, God resurrected Jesus [Acts 2 v 31, 32],
and now only Jesus has the keys to unlock death for us.- [Rev. 1 v 18]
By Jesus faithful death I think some will be resurrected to heaven [Rev. 20 v 6].
The majority of mankind [John 3 v 13] will be resurrected back to life on earth with the opportunity to live forever on a paradisaic earth starting with Jesus coming 1000-year reign over earth.- Acts 24 v 15

 

[waitasec]

Firemen do it everday.

no they don't.

 

[1robin]

no they don't.

That's a strange statement. As kids we used to play fireman and jump into a blanket held by many other kids from somewhere high up. I have seen footage many times where firemen have caught someone who jumped from a building. Maybe your semantic antennas are out and you are questioning the frequency. Since that has nothing to do with the point who would care besides you even if less frequent? The point is the consequences of decisions are mitigated continuously in millions of ways everyday by people other than who made the decision and so the point that was made is completely false.

 

[1robin]

'Death-bed' repentance is not taught in Scripture.
A person to scheme he will deliberately sin until his last moments is kidding himself.
-Hebrews 10 v 26

What about the thief on the cross? What about Constantine or the hundreds of thousands of other documented cases of this very thing? I agree it is a terrible thing to sin your whole life expecting to repent at the last second. I agree with what you said in the rest of your original post.

 

[Thief]

What about the thief on the cross? What about Constantine or the hundreds of thousands of other documented cases of this very thing? I agree it is a terrible thing to sin your whole life expecting to repent at the last second. I agree with what you said in the rest of your original post.

Indeed!...what about that thief?
Maybe that portion of the story is the true pivot point.

Not much is known about him.
You need be caught only once and it may be enough to receive a death sentence.

So we can't say he was a life time sinner.
Only that he stole and got caught.

And the Carpenter's declaration (as I see it) was an observation.
The thief spoke....well chosen words....
And the Carpenter could see... what it takes to follow into heaven.