Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[1robin]

Indeed!...what about that thief?
Maybe that portion of the story is the true pivot point.

Not much is known about him.
You need be caught only once and it may be enough to receive a death sentence.

So we can't say he was a life time sinner.
Only that he stole and got caught.

And the Carpenter's declaration (as I see it) was an observation.
The thief spoke....well chosen words....
And the Carpenter could see... what it takes to follow into heaven.

What in the world was all that? The thief started off mocking Jesus and then had a change of heart. He went from one spiritual condition to another hanging on the cross. This allowed Jesus to say he would make it to paradise. Death bed conversions are common and there is no biblically consistent reason to question them. The parable of the loborers and the equal pay points this out. No matter when we are saved in life we get to go to heaven the same as the ones that were saved early in life. Since one sin in absence of the blood of Christ in our lives makes us unworthy of heaven then this thief was doomed until he believed just the same as the rest of us.

 

[Thief]

What in the world was all that? The thief started off mocking Jesus and then had a change of heart. He went from one spiritual condition to another hanging on the cross. This allowed Jesus to say he would make it to paradise. Death bed conversions are common and there is no biblically consistent reason to question them. The parable of the loborers and the equal pay points this out. No matter when we are saved in life we get to go to heaven the same as the ones that were saved early in life. Since one sin in absence of the blood of Christ in our lives makes us unworthy of heaven then this thief was doomed until he believed just the same as the rest of us.

Actually...we seem to agree...for the most part.

You take a look at your own words.
It was indeed the change of mind and heart that ALLOWED the Carpenter to speak as He did.

The thief entered heaven.
Not by the death of the Man next to him....
but by the grace of mind and heart.

 

[waitasec]

What in the world was all that? The thief started off mocking Jesus and then had a change of heart.

where does it say that?
your comments are pure conjecture.


the two separate narratives have jesus say in the same setting...
"today you will be with me in paradise" and then yell out "why have you forsaken me?"

 

[Thief]

where does it say that?
your comments are pure conjecture.


the two separate narratives have jesus say in the same setting...
"today you will be with me in paradise" and then yell out "why have you forsaken me?"

Three of the gospels mention the thieves.
Make the usual cross comparison.

And you have quoted the Carpenter.... badly.

With this in mind, I see this topic will elude you.

 

[waitasec]

Three of the gospels mention the thieves.
Make the usual cross comparison.

And you have quoted the Carpenter.... badly.

With this in mind, I see this topic will elude you.

:spit:
funny...

it's also interesting to note that you did not include anything to support your meaningless tripe.


but by all means you are very entertaining and for that i thank you

 

[Thief]

:spit:
funny...

it's also interesting to note that you did not include anything to support your meaningless tripe.


but by all means you are very entertaining and for that i thank you

Wish I could say the same for you.

Scripture as 'meaningless tripe'...?
And you wonder your reception in debate.

Try some meaningful 'tripe' of your own.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Three of the gospels mention the thieves.
Make the usual cross comparison.
.

In the cross-comparison, in only one Gospel does the thief have a change of heart.

 

[Thief]

In the cross-comparison, in only one Gospel does the thief have a change of heart.

That's true.

Ever wonder if the gospels were manipulated?
I have suspicions.

Still, if you set aside the whole thing, instead of sorting through it...
you gain nothing.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

That's true.

Ever wonder if the gospels were manipulated?
I have suspicions.

Still, if you set aside the whole thing, instead of sorting through it...
you gain nothing.

gaining anything from it is not guaranteed. There may not be anything to gain at all.

 

[sojourner]

Ever wonder if the gospels were manipulated?
I have suspicions.

Why? Because the stories are different? Wouldn't that be expected in cases where different sources are used?

 

[waitasec]

Wish I could say the same for you.

Scripture as 'meaningless tripe'...?
And you wonder your reception in debate.

Try some meaningful 'tripe' of your own.

:biglaugh:
interesting...you can't tell the difference between your interpretation and scripture...
i find that to be very telling...are you god?

get over yourself...
in one gospel jesus said:
luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

in another gospel jesus also said:
mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?&#8221.

not very consistent....

 

[sojourner]

:biglaugh:
interesting...you can't tell the difference between your interpretation and scripture...
i find that to be very telling...are you god?

get over yourself...
in one gospel jesus said:
luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

in another gospel jesus also said:
mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

not very consistent....

So? I don't understand why you're comparing the two statements here? What, exactly are you inferring?

 

[1robin]

where does it say that?
your comments are pure conjecture.

Goooooodnight. The fact that previously he was mocking Jesus with the other member of the trio. The bible says they mocked Jesus. Since that does not include Jesus for obvious reasons and they implies two then that includes the thief in question. This is a very well known issue. He later had a change of heart as is also obvious.

the two separate narratives have jesus say in the same setting...
"today you will be with me in paradise" and then yell out "why have you forsaken me?"

Both Matthew and Mark tell us that this man was mocking Jesus before his conversion. When the unbelieving crowds were mocking our Lord’s helplessness by challenging Him to come down from the cross, both criminals joined in and mocked Him. “The rebels (v. 27) revile Jesus out of their fear and anguish
A Criminal Converted
Matthew 27:44 The thieves <3027> also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
Bible Study: The Repentant Thief on the Cross

Also the bible says he was numbered with the transgressors. Transgressor is used as a label. It is used elsewhere to label non Godly people and applys to both because it is plural.

 

[1robin]

Actually...we seem to agree...for the most part.

You take a look at your own words.
It was indeed the change of mind and heart that ALLOWED the Carpenter to speak as He did.

The thief entered heaven.
Not by the death of the Man next to him....
but by the grace of mind and heart.

There is no grace in the mind and heart of carnal man. See my post to waitsec above to get the details of what the bible says about the thieves.

 

[Holycrow]

The wisdom of Buddha was such that he knew that to help someone going through a spiritual(or otherwise) rebirth, it takes guidance and compassion, hence, the Tebetan Book Of THe Dead. Christians absorb the deity of Christ on the cross, and we have him as a sopurce of guidance and compassion through the same death-to-life- inbetweens. The NT is Jesus's deliverance of God's Buddha-like eternal compassion for mankind through his suffering,death, and ressurection.

 

[waitasec]

So? I don't understand why you're comparing the two statements here? What, exactly are you inferring?

that there are two separate narratives based on hearsay...

 

[waitasec]

Goooooodnight. The fact that previously he was mocking Jesus with the other member of the trio. The bible says they mocked Jesus.

no mark says that...luke has it different


in one narrative jesus is scared and unsure in the luke narrative jesus is confident
two opposing narratives...oops.

 

[ShadowsAndDust]

God is all powerful, why make a man just to die to save everyone when he could just do it by thinking it happening?

Yes, I know I will get a lot of comments saying "Jesus is no man! He is God!" Well, technically isn't he a demigod? Half man half God? And even if you don't consider him to be, it just made people suffer from sadness, especially Mary the mother of Jesus.

Jesus is an avatar not a demigod. I will explain later in another thread.
But I find the human sacrifice thing useless honestly. It is mean't to be symbolic but this is god so who is Jesus fooling? God sent his son to die for our sins and not himself? So basically Jehovah is a coward? The logic behind it is messed up honestly.

 

[Thief]

:biglaugh:
interesting...you can't tell the difference between your interpretation and scripture...
i find that to be very telling...are you god?

get over yourself...
in one gospel jesus said:
luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

in another gospel jesus also said:
mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

not very consistent....

Obviously you can't....or won't....read the story as if it applies....to you.

If you had lived a ministry with an occasional visit of angels.....
And in your last hour such counsel is not there....
You might as such a question.

This does apply to you.

If heaven is willing to stand back and allow the Carpenter to die....
Heaven will do the same unto you.

Get over yourself.

 

[Thief]

There is no grace in the mind and heart of carnal man. See my post to waitsec above to get the details of what the bible says about the thieves.

And this blanket statement includes...you?
Speak for yourself.

True enough there are three distinctly different accounts.
Choose.