Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[Heathen Hammer]

Jesus did not die for our sins....He died because of them.

Place an intelligent fellow in a crowd of superstitious and fearful people....
and the voice of reason will die.

dammit, i hate agreeing with you






but I agree with you )(

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Real love would be forgiveness without requiring payment.

In human terms, dieing to protect a loved one is a sacrifice because one loses everything, a requirement Jesus does not in any way meet.

In deific terms, no action would be needed for God to forgive. He could simply have forgiven, as any parent does, without keeping an account of sins or requiring a murder to reach forgiveness.

Exactly.....:clap

 

[waitasec]

Real love would be forgiveness without requiring payment.

In human terms, dieing to protect a loved one is a sacrifice because one loses everything, a requirement Jesus does not in any way meet.

In deific terms, no action would be needed for God to forgive. He could simply have forgiven, as any parent does, without keeping an account of sins or requiring a murder to reach forgiveness.

consider yourself frubed...

 

[Godobeyer]

the sin of killing God or son of God or Prophet is the most bigger/awful sin commit by human .
as we see that you the christians , believe that jesus (pbuh) ignored by God, when he (Jesus pbuh) ask his help on the cross , and he did not save him self from his killers "as GOD", how about become a SAVOIR ?
the interesting question ,is there a sin bigger than killing a God or his son ? i am don't thing so
in the war if the leader killed, the soldiers (all the army) give up .
and if we suppose that Jesus (pbuh) came back to Paul (stealthly )and other editors of the Gospel ,that mean it's big sign of fear and weak.
and if we suppose that Jesus (pbuh) will come back and some of non-believers tried to kill him again in the cross , you will let him die ? to forgive your sins for garantie ?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Real love would be forgiveness without requiring payment.

So based on your POV there shouldn't be anyone in prison. If all they have to do is ask for forgiveness and you will keep forgiving them, that would make prison obsolete. The question is, when is enough enough? Where do you draw the line? God knows everyones heart, everyones intentions, everyones true motives, so he is in a better position than us to be able to determine where to draw the line.

In human terms, dieing to protect a loved one is a sacrifice because one loses everything, a requirement Jesus does not in any way meet.

Huh?

In deific terms, no action would be needed for God to forgive. He could simply have forgiven, as any parent does, without keeping an account of sins or requiring a murder to reach forgiveness.

So, as I said above, If modern society had the same mindframe that you have, there would be no one in prison. All you would have to do is say "im sorry" and you will be forgiven. What kind of life would that be like if someone could take the life of one of your loved ones and all they had to do is apologize and that would be sufficient enough to let them off of the hook. Would you want to live in this society where there was no accountability for certain actions? If the answer is yes, then if you are ever robbed there is no need to get angry with the robber, if he is ever caught, plead on his behalf and tell the court "I am willing to overlook this if this man just simply say he is sorry". If your answer is no, and you WOULD'NT want to live in that kind of society, then you and God have at least that much in common, which is why things are the way that they are.

 

[fishy]

So based on your POV there shouldn't be anyone in prison. If all they have to do is ask for forgiveness and you will keep forgiving them, that would make prison obsolete. The question is, when is enough enough? Where do you draw the line? God knows everyones heart, everyones intentions, everyones true motives, so he is in a better position than us to be able to determine where to draw the line.



Huh?



So, as I said above, If modern society had the same mindframe that you have, there would be no one in prison. All you would have to do is say "im sorry" and you will be forgiven. What kind of life would that be like if someone could take the life of one of your loved ones and all they had to do is apologize and that would be sufficient enough to let them off of the hook. Would you want to live in this society where there was no accountability for certain actions? If the answer is yes, then if you are ever robbed there is no need to get angry with the robber, if he is ever caught, plead on his behalf and tell the court "I am willing to overlook this if this man just simply say he is sorry". If your answer is no, and you WOULD'NT want to live in that kind of society, then you and God have at least that much in common, which is why things are the way that they are.

Which just goes to prove that man created god in his likeness. This being that is LOVE needs to punish and then receive a human/god sacrifice before he can show LOVE. Pretty pathetic.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

So based on your POV there shouldn't be anyone in prison. If all they have to do is ask for forgiveness and you will keep forgiving them, that would make prison obsolete. The question is, when is enough enough? Where do you draw the line? God knows everyones heart, everyones intentions, everyones true motives, so he is in a better position than us to be able to determine where to draw the line.

So in your view every Christian should be in jail

Right?

No, you have an almost deliberately childish nonview of what my point was. We don't love criminals. the court system does not have any emotional responsibility toward anyone. God is supposedly an entity and DOES have an emotional responsibility toward EVERYONE.

I just told you the right way love works. Your God does not meet that benchmark.
You're welcome.

Huh? So, as I said above, If modern society had the same mindframe that you have, there would be no one in prison. All you would have to do is say "im sorry" and you will be forgiven. What kind of life would that be like if someone could take the life of one of your loved ones and all they had to do is apologize and that would be sufficient enough to let them off of the hook. Would you want to live in this society where there was no accountability for certain actions? If the answer is yes, then if you are ever robbed there is no need to get angry with the robber, if he is ever caught, plead on his behalf and tell the court "I am willing to overlook this if this man just simply say he is sorry". If your answer is no, and you WOULD'NT want to live in that kind of society, then you and God have at least that much in common, which is why things are the way that they are.

Again, you show zero grasp of my position. This is all just garbage unrelated to anything I said. A comparison between an entity's love for another and the court system is inept.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

So in your view every Christian should be in jail

Right?

No, you have an almost deliberately childish nonview of what my point was. We don't love criminals. the court system does not have any emotional responsibility toward anyone. God is supposedly an entity and DOES have an emotional responsibility toward EVERYONE.

LOL ok so based on your view, if I truly love someone they should be able to walk all over me all they want to, because i should have to keep forgiving them for doing me wrong. Is that a deliberate childish nonview of your point??

I just told you the right way love works. Your God does not meet that benchmark.
You're welcome.

You just told me YOUR opinion on the right way love works. Guess what, I DONT AGREE WITH YOU. Thats all that needs to be said about that.

Again, you show zero grasp of my position. This is all just garbage unrelated to anything I said. A comparison between an entity's love for another and the court system is inept.

No it isnt. If you love someone that doesnt mean not holding them responsible for wrongful acts. Apparently your view of love is greatly misplaced.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Which just goes to prove that man created god in his likeness. This being that is LOVE needs to punish and then receive a human/god sacrifice before he can show LOVE. Pretty pathetic.

So, God is wrong for discipling individuals that need to be disciplined?? Wow.

 

[Thief]

Exactly.....:clap

You actually agree?
By all means....show your support.

 

[fishy]

So, God is wrong for discipling individuals that need to be disciplined?? Wow.

What does discipline have to do with human sacrifice?

 

[Quantrill]

God is all powerful, why make a man just to die to save everyone when he could just do it by thinking it happening?

Yes, I know I will get a lot of comments saying "Jesus is no man! He is God!" Well, technically isn't he a demigod? Half man half God? And even if you don't consider him to be, it just made people suffer from sadness, especially Mary the mother of Jesus.

God didn't make a man to save everyone. Jesus Christ the Son, the Second Person of the Godhead, became a man, in order to redeem that which was lost in the fall of Adam.

But, you can take your questions farther back and say why would God create any angel or man who would or will sin against Him? Why didn't God make man where he could not sin?

Once the sin has been committed, then God must deal with the sin before any can enter into His presence. If you enter into his presence, with sin, then you will recieve nothing but judgement from God. Which is how those who reject Jesus Christ will enter.

So, you either recieve God's judgement as a sinner, or you enter into His presence, already having your sins judged on the Cross by Christ.

Quantrill

 

[fishy]

God didn't make a man to save everyone. Jesus Christ the Son, the Second Person of the Godhead, became a man, in order to redeem that which was lost in the fall of Adam.

But, you can take your questions farther back and say why would God create any angel or man who would or will sin against Him? Why didn't God make man where he could not sin?

Once the sin has been committed, then God must deal with the sin before any can enter into His presence. If you enter into his presence, with sin, then you will recieve nothing but judgement from God. Which is how those who reject Jesus Christ will enter.

So, you either recieve God's judgement as a sinner, or you enter into His presence, already having your sins judged on the Cross by Christ.

Quantrill

What PRECISELY was it that Jesus was buying back? (That is the meaning of redeem.) And from whom was he buying it?

 

[waitasec]

God must deal with the sin before any can enter into His presence.

why must god do that?

 

[Quantrill]

What PRECISELY was it that Jesus was buying back? (That is the meaning of redeem.) And from whom was he buying it?

The lives of those who were lost.

The price is God's.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

why must god do that?

Because God is righteouss. Sin cannot exist in His presence without judgement.

Quantrill

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

What does discipline have to do with human sacrifice?

Good question, dont know what i was thinking there Look, the human sacrifice was Jesus laying down his life and as an atonement for mankind. When someone does wrong, they need to be held accountable for it in Gods eyes. The death of Jesus covered that accountability. So what is the beef that you have with this??

 

[Koldo]

Good question, dont know what i was thinking there Look, the human sacrifice was Jesus laying down his life and as an atonement for mankind. When someone does wrong, they need to be held accountable for it in Gods eyes. The death of Jesus covered that accountability. So what is the beef that you have with this??

If Jesus is God, why did he pay it to himself?

I will use an analogy: Imagine i own you money. You decide to forgive my debt. However, instead of merely forgiving it, you decide to withdraw money from your bank account, pay yourself on my behalf, and then consider me free from debt. At the end of the day, you deposit the money back on your bank account.

Why did you go through all this trouble?

 

[idav]

If Jesus is God, why did he pay it to himself?

I will use an analogy: Imagine i own you money. You decide to forgive my debt. However, instead of merely forgiving it, you decide to withdraw money from your bank account, pay yourself on my behalf, and then consider me free from debt. At the end of the day, you deposit the money back on your bank account.

Why did you go through all this trouble?

I think thats called laundering but essentially it's cheating or tricking the system. We should just wipe all the countries debt, I'm sure some will benefit from that a bit more.

 

[idav]

Good question, dont know what i was thinking there Look, the human sacrifice was Jesus laying down his life and as an atonement for mankind. When someone does wrong, they need to be held accountable for it in Gods eyes. The death of Jesus covered that accountability. So what is the beef that you have with this??

Everyone needs to be held accountable yet jesus will just cover it for them? Surely the judgement spoken of has more to do with actual judging as opposed to erasing peoples names from the trial.