Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[filthy tugboat]

Not at all - I said that if you believe in God anyway then the Bible makes more sense to you.

No you didn't, you said "If you don't believe in God then it us understandable that you cannot see the wood for the trees." This implies that without a prior belief in God the Bible cannot be understood. Which when considering the belief itself, means it's circular.

This means that some people are born with the knowledge of God already inside them.

How did you get to that conclusion? Belief in God, even the Bible God can be achieved without reading the Bible, other people can tell you about their interpretation of God.

I knew God existed before I even knew what a Bible or church was.

Could you support this with some evidence and/or reasoning?

I will readily admit that my Christian theology needs a few extra hours study but that makes no difference - when I read a Bible or religious text it is all clear and it just puts into words what I already feel and know inside.

Good for you.

If you do not believe in God then any explanation of anything regarding Christianity will appear to you as circular logic and fallacy

Not at all, there are many religious ideals that are not circular, the one's you've presented however are.

- remember that religion is not science.

Logic is not science. Do you think religion should not or does not abide by the laws of logic? Really consider what that means for religion.

It certainly seems to speak to me in a different way than to yourself.

Indeed.

It doesn't do it very easily if you are stubbornly resisting it.

What am I stubbornly resisting? How am I stubbornly resisting it?

A closed mind will not likely let it in.

Let what in?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

And actually it is indicated in the text, because they didn't die that day, and according to their reactions (or lack of reaction) in the text, didn't expect to.

It's not indicated in the text by it's exclusion; it's an error. Rather cut and dried. God says you'll die from eating it; the other effect [sin, and sin for the descendants] is instant. They live for 900 years. It's really simple.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

If you don't believe in God then it us understandable that you cannot see the wood for the trees - ie: you are quibbling around with semanitcs but are failing to let the Word of God speak to you.

You are trying to decipher Genesis as if you were a legal secretary checking for errors when really you should be reading it with an open mind to let the Holy Spirit gradually seep in.

In other words, ignoring the obvious errors makes you more virtuous?

 

[nnmartin]

if you read the whole Bible in context and take on board the spiritual and mystical properties of Christ then these 'errors' no longer exist.

 

[filthy tugboat]

if you read the whole Bible in context and take on board the spiritual and mystical properties of Christ then these 'errors' no longer exist.

Only for those that wish to ignore them.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

if you read the whole Bible in context and take on board the spiritual and mystical properties of Christ then these 'errors' no longer exist.

Yes they do; "reading in context' does not mean 'ignore the obvious errors.' You pretend that you have some magical ability to see past lies and incompetent writing to truth; since you ignore the obvious, you prove you have no such ability. You have cognitive dissonance. Google it. The Bible is full of errors.
lol, "in context"

 

[nnmartin]

obvious errors - such as?

these so called errors are usually only called so by those that choose to find fault with the Bible , in the same way that 'error' could be found in virtually anything.

I am sure if we picked through the bones we could find many errors in your Odinsman belief - but this would really be more a case of 'misunderstanding' which is not the same thing at all.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

obvious errors - such as?

these so called errors are usually only called so by those that choose to find fault with the Bible , in the same way that 'error' could be found in virtually anything.

I am sure if we picked through the bones we could find many errors in your Odinsman belief - but this would really be more a case of 'misunderstanding' which is not the same thing at all.

Oh no, I welcome you to try. Be my guest.
Honestly it would be a refreshing change to see a Christian actually go looking through our sacred Lore in the first place. You'd honestly be learning what someone else's religion says. Which many of you claim to know [not speaking of you specifically] but which, when examined, are obvious falsehoods regarding such experience. Besides, it would be interesting to observe. You see, there's never been any claim of flawlessness, per se; and in addition we never make the claim that "it's divinely inspired in it's entirety or it's all false!" That's something we leave for you guys Huge mistake for you, but hey. Your rules.
Besides, there really aren't many statements which frame themselves in the same way as those in the bible; nor are there many places where you have conflicting reports of the same thing from many sources. Totally different style and philosophy, top to bottm. But hey, as I said I welcome you to try. We don't really do apologetics.


If errors can be found in virtually anything - then the Bible is merely another flawed book.

 

[filthy tugboat]

these so called errors are usually only called so by those that choose to find fault with the Bible , in the same way that 'error' could be found in virtually anything.

Can you choose to find faults with something? Isn't the very notion of finding faults something that is done without choice? If I read through the Bible and find faults, it isn't a choice, it's a reaction to the material.

 

[Koldo]

Not at all - I said that if you believe in God anyway then the Bible makes more sense to you.

I must disagree.
The bible makes much more sense if God doesn't exist.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Can you choose to find faults with something? Isn't the very notion of finding faults something that is done without choice? If I read through the Bible and find faults, it isn't a choice, it's a reaction to the material.

He is implying that anyone who finds one of the mistakes 'has an agenda'.

It can't possibly just be a mistake. Must be something morally wrong with you!

 

[nnmartin]

Can you choose to find faults with something? Isn't the very notion of finding faults something that is done without choice? If I read through the Bible and find faults, it isn't a choice, it's a reaction to the material.

You only find faults because you don't believe in God.

If you open up and let Jesus reach out to you through the words then you may find that what you see as 'fault' is merely wanting to disbelieve.

Usually people that have a go at the Bible take it too literally - think of the spiritual, philosophical and psychological material hidden within and also remember that a lot of the Bible is allegory and metaphor.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

 

[nnmartin]

He is implying that anyone who finds one of the mistakes 'has an agenda'.

It can't possibly just be a mistake. Must be something morally wrong with you!

you are correct there - it is true that there often is an atheist or opposition agenda at the heart of trying to discredit the Bible.

and forget about morals for an instant - this is showing your anti-Bible prejudice here.

Remember morals are only a small part of Christianity - most of it is about spiritual fulfillment.

Most biblical morals are just commonsense really.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

you are correct there - it is true that there often is an atheist or opposition agenda at the heart of trying to discredit the Bible.

and forget about morals for an instant - this is showing your anti-Bible prejudice here.

Remember morals is only a small part of Christianity - most of it is about spiritual fulfillment.

I am allowed to have bias against a morally flawed work of literature. Im just trying to save you from it. You are drowning in cognitive dissonance, Martin.

 

[nnmartin]

But the whole of Christianity is not just based on the Bible alone.

There is much more to it than that.

Some people also only take the Bible as pure allegory - like a gateway to the spiritual realm.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I do not see any point in this so called God sending his son to some pale blue dot in the universe on a suicide mission. It does not make a great deal of sense to me.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

But the whole of Christianity is not just based on the Bible alone.

There is much more to it than that.

Some people also only take the Bible as pure allegory - like a gateway to the spiritual realm.

Martin, I am curious why you would imagine that I, a former Christian, have never encountered the bible before nor that I would be aware of what exactly makes up Christianity. Almost every single atheist or pagan you will ever encounter here was a Christian at one point. We simply realized all the flaws and got out with our minds intact. This isn't the first time we've ever come out of our box. Whenever I hear the trite phrases how we should must give it a try and read the Bible and let God or the Holy Spirit or whomever think for us etc etc, I wonder if you think we just got off a rocket from Mars.

 

[filthy tugboat]

You only find faults because you don't believe in God.

This is either suggesting that God belief is a gateway to ignorance, or that the bible can only be taken serious with the aid of magic.

If you open up and let Jesus reach out to you through the words then you may find that what you see as 'fault' is merely wanting to disbelieve.

So magic it is. My belief's are not a product of what I want or do not want, my belief's are a product of my entire life experience. I am not free to decide that I don't believe computer's are real anymore. I can't decide whether to believe the sky is blue or green, that's not how beliefs work. The faults that I have found are not about my belief or disbelief, even if they did result in my disbelief.

Usually people that have a go at the Bible take it too literally

At what point do I stop taking it literally? The flood? The sun stopping in the sky? Jesus born of a virgin? Talking donkey's? The resurrection? Which one do you propose is literal and did happen? Some propose all of these events should be taken literally, others' none of them. I don't know where to go from there.

think of the spiritual, philosophical and psychological material hidden within and also remember that a lot of the Bible is allegory and metaphor.

I am aware of all of these things, I still find many faults. Even in the allegory I find a lot of it doesn't make sense, the message itself does not make sense to me.

 

[Koldo]

You only find faults because you don't believe in God.

I still found faults when i believed in the christian God. Just saying.