Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[sojourner]

of course. god is not comparable to an iron, because that analogy is just too easy to understand, and we wouldnt wanna have that.

Or, it could be that the concept of God is simply too large to be adequately explained by such an analogy. An iron must be "either/or," as you say. However, Jesus seems to be "both/and." Therefore, the analogy doesn't work.

Why are you so adamant that Jesus be "either/or?" Why can't Jesus be "both/and?"

you must be the first christian i have run across who claims that god is not supernatural(not above the laws of nature) by redefining supernatural events, such as gravity defying water walking as natural

Are you tentatively trying a "no true Scotsman" fallacy here?

im curious, how exactly does your reasoning work there.... if gravity is a natural force(a law of nature), how does breaking/defying a natural force not make a being supernatural(beyond/above/not limited by nature)???? youll have to enlighten me there

I don't seek to explain something that likely never actually happened. But it's interesting that you do.

 

[Thief]

Yes, but especially "natural" human beings perform miracles. Maybe they're not all that "unnatural" -- just beyond our understanding.

I would hesitate to say "bound by the natural things God made." But, being fully human, Jesus was certainly bound by natural law, just as any other human being.

That includes walking on water....
raising the dead....
changing water into wine....
storms go away when told to....
etc...etc...etc...?

 

[sojourner]

That includes walking on water....
raising the dead....
changing water into wine....
storms go away when told to....
etc...etc...etc...?

Prove that the accounts aren't mythic.

 

[Thief]

Prove that the accounts aren't mythic.

And if the accounts are false?.....
who then was He to forgive sin?
Not really the Son of God as foretold?

Not really anyone's savior?

 

[jamesmorrow]

Or, it could be that the concept of God is simply too large to be adequately explained by such an analogy. An iron must be "either/or," as you say. However, Jesus seems to be "both/and." Therefore, the analogy doesn't work.

Why are you so adamant that Jesus be "either/or?" Why can't Jesus be "both/and?"

Are you tentatively trying a "no true Scotsman" fallacy here?

I don't seek to explain something that likely never actually happened. But it's interesting that you do.

given that humans are limited by gravity


how is the following statement TRUE?


jesus is fully human but not limited by gravity

 

[sojourner]

given that humans are limited by gravity


how is the following statement TRUE?


jesus is fully human but not limited by gravity

How was Jesus not limited by gravity?

 

[jamesmorrow]

How was Jesus not limited by gravity?

the good book tells us he walked on water.

 

[sojourner]

And if the accounts are false?.....
who then was He to forgive sin?
Not really the Son of God as foretold?

Not really anyone's savior?

If you remember, Jesus was against using the miracles as proof of who he was.

Neither Jesus' Messiahship, nor his Divinity depend upon miracles.

 

[sojourner]

the good book tells us he walked on water.

A mythic account, told to make a theological point?

 

[jamesmorrow]

A mythic account, told to make a theological point?

by that standard anything else about jesus could be myth

if walking on water can be myth, suffering physical pain and dying on the cross can be myth, his divinity can be myth, his resurrection can be myth, his ascension to heaven can be myth. anything and everything in the bible and regarding jesus can be a mythic account, told to make a theological point.

how do you know the assertion "jesus is god" is TRUTH??? it can be myth, the same way you have just admitted that the assertion "jesus walked on water" can be myth.

 

[sojourner]

by that standard anything else about jesus could be myth

if walking on water can be myth, suffering physical pain and dying on the cross can be myth, his divinity can be myth, his resurrection can be myth, his ascension to heaven can be myth. anything and everything in the bible and regarding jesus can be a mythic account, told to make a theological point.

Yup. That's one explanation. Although we're pretty certain that a man named Jesus did exist, and that he was probably crucified.

The issue is, are we talking historic fact here, or theology?

how do you know the assertion "jesus is god" is TRUTH???

How do you know it's not?

it can be myth, the same way you have just admitted that the assertion "jesus walked on water" can be myth.

HInt: "Myth" and "truth" are not polar opposites.

 

[F0uad]

I have a three questions regarding the subject if Jesus(p) died for the sins of man.


How come Jesus(p) lived after he died because the scripture says once a man dies he stays dead and becomes a spirit, even Jesus(p) himself mentions this...

How can Christians then claim God is Just because according to the teachings Jesus(p) never sinned so god actually punishes a innocent person ''Hes own son'' for the guilty ones?

And my other question is how come the Bible contradicts the teaching for example:

Galatians 6
4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6


There are many more examples off-course..

 

[jamesmorrow]

Yup. That's one explanation. Although we're pretty certain that a man named Jesus did exist, and that he was probably crucified.

The issue is, are we talking historic fact here, or theology?

How do you know it's not?

HInt: "Myth" and "truth" are not polar opposites.

you assert that the biblical claim of jesus being god is NOT MYTH, while admitting that other biblical claims, such as jesus walking on water, could be myth.... so naturally, i am asking how you know that the biblical claim of jesus being god is NOT A MYTH, the way the biblical claim of jesus walking on water could be MYTH.......this is a fair question you have set yourself up for. will you man up and answer it, or will you continue looking for ways to be difficult instead?

 

[sojourner]

you assert that the biblical claim of jesus being god is NOT MYTH, while admitting that other biblical claims, such as jesus walking on water, could be myth.... so naturally, i am asking how you know that the biblical claim of jesus being god is NOT A MYTH, the way the biblical claim of jesus walking on water could be MYTH.......this is a fair question you have set yourself up for. will you man up and answer it, or will you continue looking for ways to be difficult instead?

First off, you need to decide if we're talking about fact, or truth. Because the two are not necessarily the same.

 

[Thief]

If you remember, Jesus was against using the miracles as proof of who he was.

Neither Jesus' Messiahship, nor his Divinity depend upon miracles.

As he did when he healed people....on the sabbath?
And I don't care if He was king of the Jews....
And if He is God, His claim to be brother and fellow servant to us...
allows Him to forgive sin?
take away sin?
Every believer's savior?

He did go about forgiving sin.
There was question about that to His face.
And he answered by doing a miracle.(a healing)

Still, the current question remains....
Did He really have to die for our sins?

I say He died because of them.
And such things still go on.

 

[jamesmorrow]

First off, you need to decide if we're talking about fact, or truth. Because the two are not necessarily the same.

MY QUESTION WAS:

how you know that the biblical claim of jesus being god is NOT MYTH, the way the biblical claim of jesus walking on water could be MYTH ????

 

[F0uad]

According to the scriptures ''Bible'' Jesus(p) had to die or otherwise ''Christianity'' does not exist.

According to reason he didn't have to die god could simple forgive and sin is not eternal or do others pay for the sins of others.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Well if it IS His fault....
then it does stand to reason He would do something about it.
and then sending His Son to die for us becomes a valid argument.

I'm sure that's not what you meant.

Probably not what I meant.. but if he did do something, it was also ineffectual.

Doing something was probably warranted, as he is wholly responsible for the screwup.. but adding another screwup isn't 'fixing the problem'.

 

[Pegg]

I have a three questions regarding the subject if Jesus(p) died for the sins of man.

How come Jesus(p) lived after he died because the scripture says once a man dies he stays dead and becomes a spirit, even Jesus(p) himself mentions this...

that is not actually what the bible says. The hebrews did not believe in spirits of the dead...they believed that the soul is the body and when it dies it returns to dust.
Ecclesiaties 12:7 Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it

The spirit is not a conscious entity according to the scriptures...the spirit is nothing more then the lifeforce infused into each and every soul (body) by God.
Psalm 104:29 If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?

What Jesus actually mentions is the fact that the dead are in a sleep-like condition...he says they will be 'resurrected' and brought back to life in the flesh:
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.&#8221; <as you can see in this verse, the resurrection is not immediate but occurs in 'the last day'...other verses say it occurs in the Judgement day. So when a person dies, they are non-existent until they are resurrected back to life in the flesh during the judgement day.

John 11:11 He said these things, and after this he said to them: &#8220;Laz&#8242;a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.&#8221; 12 Therefore the disciples said to him: &#8220;Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.&#8221; 13 Jesus had spoken, however, about his death....
23 Jesus said to her: &#8220;Your brother will rise.&#8221; 24 Martha said to him: &#8220;I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.&#8221; 25 Jesus said to her: &#8220;I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life

How can Christians then claim God is Just because according to the teachings Jesus(p) never sinned so god actually punishes a innocent person ''Hes own son'' for the guilty ones?

Jesus wasnt punished by God. Jesus role as the Messiah was to offer himself as the sacrifice for all mankind. His sacrifice was the equivalent of the life that Adam (our first father) lost. When Adam sinned, he unwittingly imposed death on all his offspring and we had no choice in the matter ....Jesus was sent to give mankind a choice to continue to live and die in sin, or live for Gods righteousness and thereby not be sentenced to death for our sins.

Jesus has in effect become a new father for mankind. All those who choose to take Jesus as their father will inherit salvation and everlasting life. Of course everyone is still welcome to keep sinful Adam as their forefather, but for those who want to live and not die in sin, then they can choose to put faith in Jesus Christ and receive Gods blessing.

Acts 10:43 To him (the Messiah Jesus Christ) all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name.&#8221;

 

[sojourner]

MY QUESTION WAS:

how you know that the biblical claim of jesus being god is NOT MYTH, the way the biblical claim of jesus walking on water could be MYTH ????

You like to holler, don't you!

You need to define what you mean by "myth."