Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[jamesmorrow]

You like to holler, don't you!

You need to define what you mean by "myth."

you are the one who referred to the bible accounts as such, in posts 983 and 989.......my question was in response to your statements. how do you know that the biblical claim of jesus being god is NOT myth the same way you claim that other biblical accounts could be myth? .......your repeated attempts at avoiding the question by asking me to define YOUR OWN WORDS, among other lame excuses, exposes your desperation and the fact that you dont know what your talking about. poor baby.

 

[sojourner]

you are the one who referred to the bible accounts as such, in posts 983 and 989.......my question was in response to your statements. how do you know that the biblical claim of jesus being god is NOT myth the same way you claim that other biblical accounts could be myth? .......your repeated attempts at avoiding the question by asking me to define YOUR OWN WORDS, among other lame excuses, exposes your desperation and the fact that you dont know what your talking about. poor baby.

OK, but your definition of myth probably differs from my definition. So we're going to end up talking past each other. If I knew what your definition was, I could adjust my response accordingly, so that you would come to an understanding of what I'm saying.

 

[Mindmaster]

I always thought his topic was interesting being raised a Catholic. Anyway, as far as I am aware you can spit on God, Jesus, but not the Holy Spirit. So poo poo on you holy ghost type! Anyway, I am still doubting Jesus ever existed for real most of the particulars of his story were lifted from Egyptian myths. Also, there is the fact that most of these stories were written generations after his death.

 

[jamesmorrow]

OK, but your definition of myth probably differs from my definition. So we're going to end up talking past each other. If I knew what your definition was, I could adjust my response accordingly, so that you would come to an understanding of what I'm saying.

yep, "it depends upon what the meaning of the word "is" is"...Bill Clinton would be proud....


tell you what buddy. since you are the one who brought it up, give me your definition, and ill tell you if its the same as mine.

 

[sojourner]

I always thought his topic was interesting being raised a Catholic. Anyway, as far as I am aware you can spit on God, Jesus, but not the Holy Spirit. So poo poo on you holy ghost type! Anyway, I am still doubting Jesus ever existed for real most of the particulars of his story were lifted from Egyptian myths. Also, there is the fact that most of these stories were written generations after his death.

And this has... what, exactly, to do with the topic at hand?

 

[Mindmaster]

And this has... what, exactly, to do with the topic at hand?

How does a non-existent person die for your sins? Albeit I am approaching this from a completely different direction... Strangely, I understand the value of the story or whatever.. I just wonder why people take this concept so seriously based on that information. Why does it matter that you sinned, or didn't sin? I was always confused by the fact that all sins seemingly have been resolved by Jesus' sacrifice -- but you can still sin. The conceptualization baffles me.. is all..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How does a non-existent person die for your sins? Albeit I am approaching this from a completely different direction... Strangely, I understand the value of the story or whatever.. I just wonder why people take this concept so seriously based on that information. Why does it matter that you sinned, or didn't sin? I was always confused by the fact that all sins seemingly have been resolved by Jesus' sacrifice -- but you can still sin. The conceptualization baffles me.. is all..

Adam by disobedience lost his 'sinless nature'.
Jesus died faithful [obedient] keeping his 'sinless nature'.

Sinner Adam, as our family head, passed down his then 'sinful nature' to us.
No matter how hard we try we can not stop sinning.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
'Death' is the wages or price that sinning pays. [Romans 6 vs 23,7]
'Death' does not give us a sinless nature.
So, we can not resurrect oneself or another.
We need someone who can resurrect us.
Jesus can and he will. [Rev. 1 v 18]

Resurrect people to either heaven [ Rev. 20 v6; 5 vs 9,10]
or resurrect back to life on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth or earthly subjects. -Psalm 72 v 8.

 

[FearGod]

Adam by disobedience lost his 'sinless nature'.
Jesus died faithful [obedient] keeping his 'sinless nature'.

Sinner Adam, as our family head, passed down his then 'sinful nature' to us.
No matter how hard we try we can not stop sinning.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
'Death' is the wages or price that sinning pays. [Romans 6 vs 23,7]
'Death' does not give us a sinless nature.
So, we can not resurrect oneself or another.
We need someone who can resurrect us.
Jesus can and he will. [Rev. 1 v 18]

Resurrect people to either heaven [ Rev. 20 v6; 5 vs 9,10]
or resurrect back to life on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth or earthly subjects. -Psalm 72 v 8.

But Adam is not God,but Jesus is god,do you want god to be a sinner,similar to Adam

 

[sojourner]

yep, "it depends upon what the meaning of the word "is" is"...Bill Clinton would be proud....


tell you what buddy. since you are the one who brought it up, give me your definition, and ill tell you if its the same as mine.

Tell you what, Pal-O-Mine: I'll give you a choice: Either consider lowering your sarcasm meter, or consider this conversation over.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Definitions are important, without a common (at least for the purposes of the discussion) understanding of the terms that will be used there will be disagreements.

Kiss and make up the pair of you obstinate fellows, oh pals, oh buddies, oh whatever.

 

[sojourner]

*Deleted Post*

Well, that answers the question, doesn't it. If you'd rather make sarcastic remarks about your apparent preoccupation with my genitalia (a pathetically sophomoric activity -- and creepy too, if you stop to think about it) than find some common ground upon which we can communicate, I'd have to say that there's nothing further to be said to each other. The fact that you think I'm in the least offended by your jejune remarks shows that you're far less astute than you let on. In fact, I simply am deriving no entertainment from dealing with people who choose to be snarky rather than civil, and so I have chosen to put a stop to a situation in which you seem unable to control an absurd fascination with pee-pee jokes.

Situation stopped. Buh-bye, now.

 

[sojourner]

How does a non-existent person die for your sins? Albeit I am approaching this from a completely different direction... Strangely, I understand the value of the story or whatever.. I just wonder why people take this concept so seriously based on that information. Why does it matter that you sinned, or didn't sin? I was always confused by the fact that all sins seemingly have been resolved by Jesus' sacrifice -- but you can still sin. The conceptualization baffles me.. is all..

Sin matters because it fosters negative repercussions. In fact, I don't buy into substitutionary atonement. it just doesn't work for me.

 

[sojourner]

Definitions are important, without a common (at least for the purposes of the discussion) understanding of the terms that will be used there will be disagreements.

Kiss and make up the pair of you obstinate fellows, oh pals, oh buddies, oh whatever.

Well, that's what I tried to tell him. But what're you gonna do when someone is more interested in playing games than debating? Better to just shut the problem down and move on.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

How does a non-existent person die for your sins?

First off, prove that Jesus was a non-existent person. How are any other historical figures, such as George Washington, Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great any more historically factual than the existence of Jesus Christ?

Albeit I am approaching this from a completely different direction... Strangely, I understand the value of the story or whatever.. I just wonder why people take this concept so seriously based on that information.

They take the concept so seriously because they believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of mankind. That is why.

Why does it matter that you sinned, or didn't sin?

Well, if Christianity is true, it matters because you sin against a Holy God.

I was always confused by the fact that all sins seemingly have been resolved by Jesus' sacrifice -- but you can still sin. The conceptualization baffles me.. is all..

Yeah, you can still sin. It is called free will. People make wrong choices with their free will. This is not a new concept.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I have read this sentence several times already. However, how should one interpret it?

At first glance, being fully human includes being imposed to several limitations while the same doesn't happen to a fully God being.

Being fully human Jesus subjected himself to human limitations while still being God in the flesh.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I have had similar disagreements over definitions with forum members... for those willing to establish a common set of terms, these disagreements were quickly addressed, but for those unwilling to do so it merely becomes a case of saying 'okay fine, I am walking away now' (though they often seem to feel this validates their own position and gives them license to suggest you personally or your position are at fault)

In any case however, back to the point of the thread, the concept of the NEED for Jesus to die is an interesting one, as it seems to suggest that God (or perhaps merely God the Son) wanted to forgive sins but could not do so without living life as a human and suffering death. That implies some limit to the capacity to forgive sins.

 

[F0uad]

*Deleted Post*

If you do not like someone's post ignore it? You don't have to get upset.


Back to the topic:

According to Christianity the answer is no Jesus(p) had to die:

1 Corinthians 15
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14and if Christ be not risen, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain.


According to Reason and logic:

No he didn't have to die.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Adam by disobedience lost his 'sinless nature'.
Jesus died faithful [obedient] keeping his 'sinless nature'.

Sinner Adam, as our family head, passed down his then 'sinful nature' to us.
No matter how hard we try we can not stop sinning.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
'Death' is the wages or price that sinning pays. [Romans 6 vs 23,7]
'Death' does not give us a sinless nature.
So, we can not resurrect oneself or another.
We need someone who can resurrect us.
Jesus can and he will. [Rev. 1 v 18]

Resurrect people to either heaven [ Rev. 20 v6; 5 vs 9,10]
or resurrect back to life on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth or earthly subjects. -Psalm 72 v 8.

Since sin did not at first exist, and came to be due to Adam, why didn't Jesus' sacrifice wipe it away again?

it seems Adam was far more powerful than Jesus.

 

[Thief]

Probably not what I meant.. but if he did do something, it was also ineffectual.

Doing something was probably warranted, as he is wholly responsible for the screwup.. but adding another screwup isn't 'fixing the problem'.

This and another post of yours points the way.

First contact (the garden) was not altogether successful.
Adam and Eve became more than everyone else....
but the overall effect still lacked 'something'.

You can see that in the lives of Adam and Eve, as well as their children,
and again in your fellowman.

For this post, let's call that lack of something...'sin'.

The Carpenter's parables would then be the point of correction.
If only people were paying attention.

Dying for our sins?...no He did not.
Executed under false accusation?...yeah.
Brought on by our sinful lack of 'something'?....yeah.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

But see, that's the shame, isn't it? If his death was heroic, it seem unjust that nothing really changed. One would wish that a hero should not die in vain.