sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The atmosphere has a lot of levels too as well as the Empire State Building. But neither of them employ double-standards. Why should theology be any different?
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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
jasonwill2
Well-Known Member
All of that is alleged, not proved. Actually a lot of Bible claims have been dis-proven by historical research and history.
You CLAIM that "god" wrote it, yet that is only a claim... you don't KNOW those things, you only believe it. And you can't prove it either and all evidence points to it not being so.
jasonwill2
Well-Known Member
This is true. People see things in the Bible that it's not really saying all the time, a lot of the prophecies about Jesus are this way.
Orias
Left Hand Path
Exactly.
On another note, Jesus is not the definition of human suffering, as people have suffered from far worse and still are.
To say Jesus died for our sins is to say the survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki must believe that Jesus suffered more than they did. But how could he suffer for all of us, when it was his actions that put him there in the first place?
Its all...a fabrication. But don't worry, a replacement will be found shortly
On another note, Jesus is not the definition of human suffering, as people have suffered from far worse and still are.
To say Jesus died for our sins is to say the survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki must believe that Jesus suffered more than they did. But how could he suffer for all of us, when it was his actions that put him there in the first place?
Its all...a fabrication. But don't worry, a replacement will be found shortly
Exactly.
On another note, Jesus is not the definition of human suffering, as people have suffered from far worse and still are.
To say Jesus died for our sins is to say the survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki must believe that Jesus suffered more than they did. But how could he suffer for all of us, when it was his actions that put him there in the first place?
Its all...a fabrication. But don't worry, a replacement will be found shortly
Huh? Which one of those Hiroshima suffers were put to death because of their faithfulness to God ?
Job proved Satan a liar by remaining faithful to God under adverse conditions.
Jesus proved Satan the liar by remaining faithful to God in the face of death.
Some people say Jesus had one bad day and we know others have suffered for years. Often those suffers can not walk away from their suffering.
Unlike those suffers Jesus could have left [walked away] anytime he chose.
Death is the wage or price for our sins according to Romans 6 vs 23,7
But, we being sinful can not resurrect oneself or another.
We need someone who can do that for us.
Because sinless Jesus died faithful to God then Jesus was given the keys to unlock death for us. [ Revelation 1 v 18]
Without Jesus ransom for us [Matthew 20 v 28] the people or Hiroshima, etc. would not have a resurrection back to life.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Inever said I did know it for a fact. It is a very reasonable conclusion. I have spents dozens of hours showing that all (so far) proofs against the bible are wrong but if you want to give me your best two or three I will do so again. I have only claimed what the implications are if it is true. I have no illusion that you will agree that it is though. Nonetheless it is very likely to be true for hundreds of reasons that is why over 2 billion people currently believe in it, and they include some of the smartest people on the planet. Before you reach for the fallacy button diversiontool which is the specialty of the critic, I did not say numbers make it true but they do argue for it's reasonability or likelyhood.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Quote me any scripture or even a statement by a Christian that suggests that the only way Christs sacrifice is suffecient is if he suffered more than any one else in history. He suffered quite enough. And your point makes absolutely no sence and shows a complete lack of theological knowledge.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Now that is the hieght of Satanic scholarship if I have ever seen it. Who can argue with such profound wisdom and theological understanding. Was this statement worth the time it took to type it?
waitasec
Veteran Member
the only issue i have with with this idea is that
i can't be on 2 different levels at once.
so either it is impossible to turn away from god or it isn't.
jasonwill2
Well-Known Member
You do know that one of the semantic meanings of the Hebrew title is "accuser", right? The Accuser (Ha-Satan in Hebrew) in the Book of Job was an angel working of Yahweh. Ha-Satan was saying he was looking for someone to test, and Yahweh said "did you consider my servant Job?" Why else would he offer someone for him to test. The Accuser then said that he would prosecute Job and test him to see how far Job's faith really went, and then you can read the rest about how Job questioned himself, passed the test, and then was rewarded... at the expense of the loss of the lives of his family, but now with a *new* wife and many *new* kids!
The Accuser, or rather, The Satan that is talked about here was just doing his Job (pun intended) and was testing Job's faith like he was supposed to. How else would Satan be in Heaven and Yahweh's presence to talk to him? Evil and sin can't be in the sight of Yahweh (canonically according to Christianity) or else it will be destroyed instantaneously due to Yahweh's inherent nature, and the Book of Job records The Accuser as talking to Yahweh in person as in, in Heaven.
So obviously the entity spoken of in the Book of Job, that is given the title of The Accuser, which in Hebrew is Ha-Satan (ha= the, satan=accuser) is not some evil entity.
The Bible and the Fundamentalists their "proof" contradict sound evidence-based research in plate tectonics, biology, astronomy, cosmology, physics, history, linguistics, chemistry, zoology, paleontology, geology, and anthropology.
The literalistic Bible-believing camp and their "evidence" is based on non-comprehensive, non peer-reviewed information that is neither scientifically analyzed nor attempted to be falsified. Many of the "facts" proving Creationism, from the magnetic poles not being able to be more than 10,000 years old, to claiming that the ocean would be much saltier if it were millions of years old all result from misunderstands of the facts, for example the one about the ocean comes from mixing the salinity of salt and sodium if I recall correctly.
Also do not make an appeal to neither numbers nor authority. You reason 'lots of people believe it' with 'even some of the smartest people', and somehow constitutes that as proof. I could use the same reasoning that many smart people and virutally everyone supported race-based slavery once-upon-a-time, and be no less incorrect than you in my reasoning.
Yes, because perhaps it will make you realize one day how unintelligent and petty your retort was.
edit: also of note, that isn't Satanic scholarship, as many Jews and Secular people have said the same thing about many, many Christian theologies.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
Orias is right.
jasonwill2
Well-Known Member
This is a true statement.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
To echo your less than stellar style. PROVE IT. I realise why you say this all the time it requires no thought or effort.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I have three rediculous assertions and no facts whatsoever, great double standard.
jasonwill2
Well-Known Member
No, the burden of proof is on you to prove your Bible.
You could start here, for one:
An Index to Creationist Claims
Historical criticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
waitasec
Veteran Member
it's actually spelled this way
ridiculous
no facts whatsoever is right...
faith =/= fact didn't you know?
waitasec
Veteran Member
Orias
Left Hand Path
Better yet which one of those survivors wished a nuclear bomb be dropped on their head?
Which Jesus, knowing the consequences, chose to believe in what he did while openly admitting it?