Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[F0uad]

Scapegoating was a bodily response to a spiritual problem.
See the practice of Moses...old testament.
They really did believe sin to be something you got tangibly lay onto some other creature.
When that creature dies, with your sin upon it....the sin dies with it.

I see your point but a animal soul dies however the biblical scriptures and teachings tells us that a human-soul cannot die so therefore Jesus's(p) soul didn't die or was destroyed therefore i conclude that the sins are still there?

Keep in mind that the soul carries the burden and not a physical body..

 

[1robin]

the bible says to commit genocide.
did you forget the midianites?

I refuse to believe that you have such a limited understanding of the bible as to think this is a valid point. There were several times in the old testament where God himself authorized war. It was for a specific time, covered a specific group, and was for a specific purpose. There has never been an authorization in the bible to allow war in any general sense. There is not one verse that authorizes war of any kind whatsoever in the new testament. We are not in the old covenant we are in the new covenant (testament). So once again the bible in no way justifies any wars at all for people who have lived since 33AD. It did not authorize any general mandate for war in it's entire history. In fact the new testament universally condemns all war. So, try again. If you are right then it should be easy for you to produce a verse in context that justifies warfare or violence in general from the bible that is currently applicable. Good luck

i know. but don't worry, i don't expect you to understand.

Of course you don't or you would have instead made a concise applicable claim.

 

[1robin]

I have a question that has something to do with the title.


If Jesus(p) took away our sins then hes soul had to die (because the soul carries the burden) yet a soul cannot die according to the bible.. Please some clarification...

I thought this was already cleared up. The event you are referring to is Jesus' soul suffering THE SECOND DEATH for us. The second death is unlike physical death, it is separation from God. Jesus suffered separation from God (hell) which is our just penalty. He obviously didn't remove physical death for us, we still physically die. He removed the far more serious and eternal consequence of sin. Separation from God. Did I not post this for you the other day? Maybe I am miss-remembering. There are two primary meanings for the word death in the bible. 1. Physical death. 2. Spiritual death (eternal separation from God) In the original Greek two separate words are used similar to your tempted issue. I could have sworn I had already posted all this including the Greek for you.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I see your point but a animal soul dies however the biblical scriptures and teachings tells us that a human-soul cannot die so therefore Jesus'(p) soul didn't die or was destroyed therefore i conclude that the sins are still there?
Keep in mind that the soul carries the burden and not a physical body..

Remember: the soul that sins dies.- Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20; Acts 3 v 23
According to Acts [3 v 23] the soul can be destroyed.

Adam was a living soul. Before life Adam was not a living soul.
At death Adam became a dead soul or lifeless soul.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I thought this was already cleared up. The event you are referring to is Jesus' soul suffering THE SECOND DEATH for us. The second death is unlike physical death, it is separation from God. Jesus suffered separation from God (hell) which is our just penalty. He obviously didn't remove physical death

No where does Scripture say Jesus was in the lake of fire [second death]

According to Scripture Jesus was in the biblical hell [sheol]
- Acts 2 vs 27,31; Psalm 16 v 10

Satan ends up in 'second death' according to Rev. 21 v 8
Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B.
So 'second death' is a fitting term for: destruction

Jesus 'will remove' our last enemy 'death' during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. - 1st Corinthians 15 v 26; Isaiah 25 v 8; Rev. 21 vs 4,5

Jesus has the keys to unlock hell [ Rev. 1 v 18] and everyone in the biblical hell will be 'delivered up' [resurrected] before vacant hell is cast empty into second death according to Rev. 20 vs 13,14.

 

[Jacksnyte]

No where does Scripture say Jesus was in the lake of fire [second death]

According to Scripture Jesus was in the biblical hell [sheol]
- Acts 2 vs 27,31; Psalm 16 v 10

Satan ends up in 'second death' according to Rev. 21 v 8
Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B.
So 'second death' is a fitting term for: destruction

Jesus 'will remove' our last enemy 'death' during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. - 1st Corinthians 15 v 26; Isaiah 25 v 8; Rev. 21 vs 4,5

Jesus has the keys to unlock hell [ Rev. 1 v 18] and everyone in the biblical hell will be 'delivered up' [resurrected] before vacant hell is cast empty into second death according to Rev. 20 vs 13,14.

The problem I have always had with the christian concept of hell is that a lot of christians define hell as "seperated form god", which negates omnipresence, which in turn negates omnipotence.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Whoa Dude!
If you would say to believe in all things written...no cherry picking?
THAT would be quite a bushel of cherries to carry around!

And you'll notice that the baskets of most Christians are actually mostly empty.

How many of you stone your disobedient daughters?

Those who don't, are cherry picking.

 

[Thief]

I see your point but a animal soul dies however the biblical scriptures and teachings tells us that a human-soul cannot die so therefore Jesus's(p) soul didn't die or was destroyed therefore i conclude that the sins are still there?

Keep in mind that the soul carries the burden and not a physical body..

I know this thread is lengthy....almost buried in digressions.
I have said so repeatedly throughout...

Jesus did not die for your sins.
He died for cause of a false accusation....'king of the Jews'.

His ministry and His teachings are the salvation.
Say as He said...do as He did....fine.
Such is the means and method of salvation.

Christian faith simply picked up the rhetoric of scapegoating.
It then got out of hand and many now take it literally.

Hence the catch phrase....
'Many will call Me 'Lord'...and I know then not.'

 

[jasonwill2]

Are you guys still seriously debating this?

For any lurkers it seems moot; anyone that would of changed their minds have probably already done so.

why continue the debate?

seriously I see the same people in here more or less slugging it out over at least a month of debate

 

[Pegg]

I see your point but a animal soul dies however the biblical scriptures and teachings tells us that a human-soul cannot die so therefore Jesus's(p) soul didn't die or was destroyed therefore i conclude that the sins are still there?

Keep in mind that the soul carries the burden and not a physical body..

not quite.

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die

Judges 16:30 And Samson proceeded to say: “Let my soul die with the Phi·lis′tines.”

Job 33:22 And his soul draws near to the pit, And his life to those inflicting death

Psalm 78:50 He proceeded to prepare a pathway for his anger. He did not hold back their soul from death itself

Isaiah 53:12 '... he poured out his soul to the very death'

Acts 3:23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people


The hebrews believed that the living person was a soul. And for that reason a soul did most certainly die. The hebrew word translated soul is 'nephesh'...it is the living breathing individual.

 

[sojourner]

And you'll notice that the baskets of most Christians are actually mostly empty.

How many of you stone your disobedient daughters?

Those who don't, are cherry picking.

Not necessarily. "Cherry picking" consists of simply dismissing what one is uncomfortable with, based upon the Bible being the "Ultimate Authority" and "infallible."

 

[1robin]

No where does Scripture say Jesus was in the lake of fire [second death]

Of course it doesn't. It is a very well accepted interpretation that the fire associated with hell is not literal. For example it was used in conjunction with the valley outside Jerusalem where trash was burned to illustrate the terrible aspect of hell.

According to Scripture Jesus was in the biblical hell [sheol]
- Acts 2 vs 27,31; Psalm 16 v 10

Yes and that is equivalent to seperation from God. If you allow for biblical progressive revelation it is very easy to see that the consept of hell was given in a very primitave form early on and was expanded and eleborated on later. Since there is no contenion that Jesus did not save us from physical death (the grave) since we still physically die then what did he save us from? From the far more severe and important second death (seperation from God) He suffered this so we don't have to.

Satan ends up in 'second death' according to Rev. 21 v 8
Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B.
So 'second death' is a fitting term for: destruction

I agree that the term destruction can be applied to hell. It is only one of many that can be. Since some people choose to stay somewhat seperated from God in this life (refusing to accept Christ) they are given exactly what they chose when they die eternal and full seperation from God.

Jesus 'will remove' our last enemy 'death' during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. - 1st Corinthians 15 v 26; Isaiah 25 v 8; Rev. 21 vs 4,5

If we belong to him then yes he does this. He has already paiid for this action. However the action doesn't take place until the future judgement. That is what those verses are saying. We are not judged as soon as we die. That takes place at the final judgement.

Jesus has the keys to unlock hell [ Rev. 1 v 18] and everyone in the biblical hell will be 'delivered up' [resurrected] before vacant hell is cast empty into second death according to Rev. 20 vs 13,14.

That is an incorrect interpretation. The issue of keys means Jesus has the power to save the ones who have trusted him as savior from hell. It does not mean he will free evry sould that is confined there. Another interpretation states that hell in this verse means the grave. Jesus raises everyone from the grave to be judged. The saved to heaven and the doomed to hell.
Your last verse:New International Version (©1984)
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Death and hades are equal to the grave in this verse and do not mean hell as we know it.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death

Like I said lake of fire is well accepted to be symbolic. I am not saying that interpretation is correct but may very well be. This is saying that the cycle of birth, death, and the grave is done away with. There is no indication that hell (eternal seperation is done away with) just that things are now fixed and the old cycles are done away with. Whatever hell is Jesus saved Christians from it and it is an eternal condition and possibly a place.

and have the keys of hell and death; or "of death and hell"; as the words are transposed in the Alexandrian copy and Complutensian edition, in the Vulgate Latin and in all the Oriental versions, agreeably to Revelation 6:8, by which phrase is expressed the power of Christ over both: his power over death is seen in taking away persons by death when he pleases, the instances of Ananias and Sapphira are proofs of this; and in delivering persons from death when near it, as the centurion's servant, Peter's wife's mother, and the nobleman's son of Capernaum; and in raising persons from the dead, as Jairus's daughter, the widow of Naam's son, and Lazarus, when he was here on earth; and in his raising up his own body when dead, and which will also appear in raising all the dead at the last day: and his power over "hell", by which may be meant the grave, or the place of the departed, and separate souls, or the place of the damned and of the devils which are there, will be seen in opening the graves at the time of the resurrection, when death and hell, or the grave, will deliver up the dead in them, at his command; and in retaining or sending out the separate souls "in hades"; and in opening the doors of hell, and casting in the wicked, and destroying them, soul and body, there; and in shutting them up, that they cannot come out from thence who are once in; and in binding Satan, and casting him into the bottomless pit, and shutting him up there, the key of which he has in his hand; and in preserving his church and people from his power and malice, so that the gates of hell cannot prevail against them. This is an expression of the sovereignty, power, and authority of Christ; and is designed to encourage and support John under his present concern and anxiety of mind about the person he saw in this vision: , "the key of the grave", and of the resurrection of the dead, is frequently said by the Jews to be one of the keys which are in the hands of the holy blessed God, and his only; not in the hands of an angel or a seraph, or any other (u),
Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. My words in bold.

Keep in mind that the new testament was written in Greek (the most descriptive language in history) and sometimes several Greek words with different meanings are translated as the same word in English. If you ckeck into this issue when you find things confusing many times it will perfectly clear the issue up in great detail.
This site makes that very easy. Blue Letter Bible - Home Page If you keep challengeing me on this point that will be my next stop.

 

[1robin]

The problem I have always had with the christian concept of hell is that a lot of christians define hell as "seperated form god", which negates omnipresence, which in turn negates omnipotence.

The well accepted interpretation I have adopted (I am not claiming that I am right but it seems the most consistent) claims that hell is eternal seperation from God. This is not a place, it is a condition. Being that we are discussing the location of a soul then physical dimensions arent relevant. Another verse to keep in mind is:

Mathew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body , but are not able to kill the soul : but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .
Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV

This seems to suggest the final fate of non believers might be complete destruction. This would be consistent with both seperation from God and divine mercy. Eternal tortue in a fire doesn't seem consistent with a loving God.

 

[1robin]

Are you guys still seriously debating this?

For any lurkers it seems moot; anyone that would of changed their minds have probably already done so.

why continue the debate?

seriously I see the same people in here more or less slugging it out over at least a month of debate

A reasonable but futile point. I have no idea why non believers spend so much time fighting against something they don't believe exists. I do not believe leprecauns exist but I do not debate any one about them. I am here so a new Christian might find there are quite good reasons to keep the faith in the face of challenges and in answering questions I learn more about my faith and actually have grown more convinced and find stronger and stronger reasons for it.

 

[F0uad]

not quite.

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die

Judges 16:30 And Samson proceeded to say: “Let my soul die with the Phi·lis′tines.”

Job 33:22 And his soul draws near to the pit, And his life to those inflicting death

Psalm 78:50 He proceeded to prepare a pathway for his anger. He did not hold back their soul from death itself

Isaiah 53:12 '... he poured out his soul to the very death'

Acts 3:23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people


The hebrews believed that the living person was a soul. And for that reason a soul did most certainly die. The hebrew word translated soul is 'nephesh'...it is the living breathing individual.

So the soul dies that means God died since Jesus(p) is god... don't you see the problem?

 

[F0uad]

Remember: the soul that sins dies.- Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20; Acts 3 v 23
According to Acts [3 v 23] the soul can be destroyed.

Adam was a living soul. Before life Adam was not a living soul.
At death Adam became a dead soul or lifeless soul.

So when we die we become nothing we wont go to heaven or hell.. great?

Also the problem still remains if Jesus(p) is god and he hes soul died then God died, if hes soul didn't die he didn't took your burden.

I thought this was already cleared up. The event you are referring to is Jesus' soul suffering THE SECOND DEATH for us. The second death is unlike physical death, it is separation from God. Jesus suffered separation from God (hell) which is our just penalty. He obviously didn't remove physical death for us, we still physically die. He removed the far more serious and eternal consequence of sin. Separation from God. Did I not post this for you the other day? Maybe I am miss-remembering. There are two primary meanings for the word death in the bible. 1. Physical death. 2. Spiritual death (eternal separation from God) In the original Greek two separate words are used similar to your tempted issue. I could have sworn I had already posted all this including the Greek for you

No you haven't a answer is not always a right answer, also the second death has nothing to do with Jesus(p) he is part of God or god himself so how can they be separated?

Even if this is the case then God didn't took away the burdens..

 

[Thief]

Not necessarily. "Cherry picking" consists of simply dismissing what one is uncomfortable with, based upon the Bible being the "Ultimate Authority" and "infallible."

I don't use this technique.

As I was reading the parables of the Carpenter, I realized what He was doing.
In the stories and incidents are the means and methods of the next life.

Some of those stories are difficult to feel good about.
Some have seriously dreadful endings.

 

[Thief]

Are you guys still seriously debating this?

For any lurkers it seems moot; anyone that would of changed their minds have probably already done so.

why continue the debate?

seriously I see the same people in here more or less slugging it out over at least a month of debate

Yes!.... ain't it just too much!

 

[idav]

A reasonable but futile point. I have no idea why non believers spend so much time fighting against something they don't believe exists. I do not believe leprecauns exist but I do not debate any one about them. I am here so a new Christian might find there are quite good reasons to keep the faith in the face of challenges and in answering questions I learn more about my faith and actually have grown more convinced and find stronger and stronger reasons for it.

Many disagreements are from different faiths.

Are there really any theists that think God can actually die and that we could be the ones to kill him? Would God really corrupt himself by literally becoming human? The logic seems flawed not only by atheists but other theists as well.

 

[1robin]

Many disagreements are from different faiths.

I have debated dozens of atheists repeatedly.

Are there really any theists that think God can actually die and that we could be the ones to kill him?

About two billion plus alive today plus another few billion over the last 2000 plus years.

Would God really corrupt himself by literally becoming human? The logic seems flawed not only by atheists but other theists as well.

Is your God so weak that he is restrained by your interpretation by what is logical or not? Your wording is strange are you middle eastern. So you have appointed yourself as the arbiter of what God can and cannot do. You have a much smaller and weaker God than I do if he listens to what you decide he can do and apparently can't do what mine did. My God can assume human form and sacrifice his human body on my behalf if he chooses.I am humble enough to not dictate to others what God is allowed to do. Especially considering that he said he did so in the most respect book in human history.