Did Jesus say he was God???

[sniper762]

this debate will always exist between trinitarians and non-trinitarians.

jesus and god, the father are two separate entities but one in purpose.

to interpret jesus' words to mean that he and his father constitute 1 in the same would contradict his own words that his father sent him.

in understanding the entire text of jesus' words, one must understand the individuality of jesus and his father in order to accept the true value of godliness.

 

[DP07]

So we take Jesus' Words and not what is said in John chapter 1? Or do we combine them saying that they are one in the same. With different purposes that in turn is often spoken as 2 different people. Such as Jesus was God but in coming to Earth seperated himself. Becoming the Son. Maybe?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So we take Jesus' Words and not what is said in John chapter 1? Or do we combine them saying that they are one in the same. With different purposes that in turn is often spoken as 2 different people. Such as Jesus was God but in coming to Earth seperated himself. Becoming the Son. Maybe?

What is said in John chapter one?
God had No beginning according to Psalm 90v2.
So only God was before the beginning.
John 1v1 says in the beginning was the Word [Logos/ spokesman].
Jesus was Not before the beginning.
[John also wrote Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God- Rev 3v14b]
Jesus was 'with' God just as we could be 'with' another person.
[Hebrews 9vs24]
The same Greek grammar rule at Acts 28v6 applies also to John 1v1.
They should be consistent. In Acts the letter' a' is inserted and omitted at John.

John himself in chapter one clearly says in verse 18 that No man has seen God at any time. [Eze 33v20] People saw Jesus. For the record, or John bare record, at verse 34 that Jesus is: the Son of God. John also wrote in chapter one that Nathanael believed Jesus to be the: Son of God. John concludes chapter one by calling Jesus the Son of Man.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Bible does not contradict itself. Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God and the Bible is clear that he is God's only-begotten Son. You are not your father, and your son is not you. After Jesus resurrection (performed by God) the apostle differeniates God from his Son and shows God's superiority: "the head of the Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) Near the close of his gospel, John wrote these words:
"To be sure, Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:30,31)

Good points rusra-

While still on earth at John [20v17b] Jesus believed he had a God over him.

Even Isaiah 9v6 refers to Jesus just as Mighty and not Almighty.
Being 'firstborn' in the heavens [Col 1v15] Jesus was divine or Mighty God but never called Almighty God.- Rev 3v14b.

Also, decades, after his resurrection by God, the glorified heavenly Jesus still refers to himself at Rev 2v18 as being: the Son of God, and Jesus still calls his Father as his [my] God at Rev 3v12.

 

[DP07]

So Word was God as stated in Chapter one or do we take that verse out of the bible to fit our believes?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes John 1 says The Word was God and the Word became Flesh.

Fist off this doesn't appear to have been a declaration from the biblical Yeshua rather this is from the mind of the writer of the book of John.

The light of men.

Do you believe the light is in refence to "God" specifically or Yeshua?

John the Baptist was a witness to this light or Jesus who was the Word which was God and why do you call them my gospels.

The biblical John the baptist actually thought Yeshua was a servant of the god that sent Yeshua. He didn't think Yeshua was "God" in the flesh. He, as far as the gospel of John goes, views Yeshua more like an ambassador who was sent by "God" to speak on behalf of "God"....but certainly NOT "God" in the flesh.


John 3:34
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.[/FONT]

So no. John the baptist thought his god sent him to speak on behalf of "God".

But what is interesting is that the biblical Yeshua didn't think he was "God" in the flesh either. He believed he had a god and his god sent him to speak on his behalf. He believed he had a mission to fulfill that was sanctioned by his god.

14:24
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Anyone who doesn't love me will not do what I say. And remember, my words are not my own. This message is from the Father who sent me.[/FONT]

God was sent..?.....sent by who...?

I did not say I was Christian.

Ahhh!, but your stance on the supposed deity of the biblical Yeshua is most apologetic.

I am debating from a Biblical view.

No you're not. There is no such thing considering there are multiple interpretations of the same book.

 

[DP07]

If it is stated in the Bible then it came directly from God is the believe we are using. I believe it is referring to Jesus. Yes John states Jesus is coming to tell of us God. Lets just say for the purpose of this debate that God understands our limited understanding of him. We can never imagine to understand God when we are here on this Earth so for the purpose of allowing us to understand the physical God or Jesus he became the son. Yes but if you follow the Bible there is only one truth. So to argue using it you must find what that is. I am not saying I am right. I just like to debate the point. For example I could use the bible to show instruments arent meant to be used in todays worship to the biblical God. Would I be right no but I can put a convincing argument on it. I understand how you would get that from my stance. I strongly back what I believe and at one point I followed the bible. Then looked deeper and saw contradictions that just cant be explained away, but I still believe that for the most part you can make sense of most of the Bible. Sry if some of that doesnt make sense I was talking to my girlfriend and trying to look stuff up on biblegateway.com. If anything was confusing you can point it out or send me a message and I can clear it up.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If it is stated in the Bible then it came directly from God is the believe we are using.

I am a skeptic so I'm not under the belief that the bible or any other supposed holy book is inerrant. Although this is not the thread for this I will just state that the bible is not without its errors (not in translation but in content) or is contradictions. It has never been viewed as a history book, science book nor a math book. Nor should it ever be.

We can never imagine to understand God when we are here on this Earth so for the purpose of allowing us to understand the physical God or Jesus he became the son.

This is only apparent to the way you want to believe it. There is nothing in the 4 gospels where the biblical Yeshua thought he was "God" in the flesh nor was it something he taught his followers.

Yes but if you follow the Bible there is only one truth.

As far as following the bible...one man's truth is another's falsehood. It's truly all in the interpretations. In the world of Christiandom there are hundreds of sects where some view the biblical Yeshua as "God" and others don't. There is without a doubt a fundamental difference in what one considers "truth".

I still believe that for the most part you can make sense of most of the Bible.

Although this thread is not to focus on contradictions in the bible I found it necessary to state that there were in response to an earlier post. I think one can certainly find some accuracies in the bible.

 

[DP07]

Under Religion it says common sense. You do not believe in a God?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Under Religion it says common sense. You do not believe in a God?

No. but whether I am a believer or not has no bearing on whether or not the scripture show the biblical Yeshua to be "God" in flesh.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So Word was God as stated in Chapter one or do we take that verse out of the bible to fit our believes?

Was Paul god? -Acts 28v6

From the Greek the translators decided whether to capitalize the letter 'G/g' or whether to insert the letter 'a' at both verses: John 1v1 and Acts 28v6.
The same Greek grammar rules applies in both verses.

Was God ever called the Word? We know the Bible is called God's Word but no where is God called 'the Word'.

Word is not a name but a title. That title 'Word' describes a function or duty.
Word describes communication for conveying information or instructions.
Who was the one who claimed he had special accurate knowledge of God but Jesus. So Jesus as God's spokesperson [logos] could convey his Father's will for mankind.
[John 12vs49,50; 14v10; 7v16]

Also, Please note at Rev 19v13 the heavenly resurrected Jesus is still called the: Word 'of' God. 'Of' still implies belonging to another.

 

[Muffled]

Just for my own information , what was new about Jesus' teachings?

The basic new information was that The Holy Spirit is avalable to everyone, not just priests and prophets.

That isn't new either but it is doubtful that the people in general could derive the inference which made it necessary to say it plainly.

The other message is not new either but needed to be made plain by demonstration, ie that God loves the people He created. He demonstrates this by coming to earth as Jesus and suffering on the cross for us.

 

[Muffled]

The sun God! haha

The Nag Hamadi says that Jesus was made in the image as God, not that he was God. To know God, we need to know Jesus since he came here to show us the light and all that. I haven't read anything in it that says if you don't believe this you are going to hell. It more or less says that we can't really know God since our perceptions are limited, but if we focus on Jesus, we can attain a better understanding of what/who God really is. It says that God is everywhere. It also says that our mind is everywhere, for how can the mind be in one place if it can contemplate many different things at once. That teaching can be found in the Teachings of Silvanus (99,1-28)

"Christ is the True Light" (98,20-99,15)

Live with Christ, and he will save you. For he is the true light and the sun of life. Just as visible sun shines on physical eyes, so Christ illuminates every mind and heart. For if one who is wicked during his lifetime has an evil death, how much more so does one who has a blind mind. For every blind person is incapable of seeing. So it is with people who do not have a sound mind. The do not delight in acquiring the light of Christ, which is reason. For everything visible is a copy of what is invisible. You cannot know God through any means except through Christ, who bears the image of the Father."

I do not accept the Nag Hamadi as an authority because 1. He is not God and 2. His words are contrary to the scriptures. This is an old argument that is flawed. One does not need to know God to be able to see and hear Him in the flesh. For that matter do any of us really know each other, yet we recognize each other's existence.

That is a new concept although some have asked what difference it makes. The fact that God loves us was proved by his death on the cross. Then, one can not say that God is unloving for wishing to save us from sin. The person who rejects the idea that God loves us by saving us from sin, is justifying his sin and that road leads to Hell.

Our thoughts are everywhere. Our mind is stationary in the body. I trust you aren't speaking about the mind of the spirit which is capable of traveling outside the body (At extremely great risk of death) but however is finite and can only be in one place at a time.

 

[Muffled]

This i've heard a 1000 times, I'm talking about something new.

Why are you looking for something new? The fact that Jesus is consistent with the word of God is only one more proof that He is God in the flesh.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why are you looking for something new? The fact that Jesus is consistent with the word of God is only one more proof that He is God in the flesh.

True, Jesus was consistent with the Word [Bible] of God, but where was Jesus consistent that he was God in the flesh?

Rev 3v14b; Col. 1v15; John 10v36

 

[look3467]

True, Jesus was consistent with the Word [Bible] of God, but where was Jesus consistent that he was God in the flesh?

1. At the Baptism of Jesus. Ref: Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Note: You may not give numbers in scripture any weight, but notice the number of the chapter and verse? 1:11 One; God, two; spirit and three; Jesus, all as one.

2. As David, as the house of David as God:Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

So far consistent with the word of God is Jesus.
Son of David, "he that is feeble among them, shall be as David, and the house of David as God.

3. By the free gift :Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

4. Power to raise Himself from the dead.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

What was it that the priest questioned Jesus about? Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

As God, Jesus had the power!

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. At the Baptism of Jesus. Ref: Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

REPLY: Son. Not: thou art God

Note: You may not give numbers in scripture any weight, but notice the number of the chapter and verse? 1:11 One; God, two; spirit and three; Jesus, all as one.

2. As David, as the house of David as God:Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

So far consistent with the word of God is Jesus.
Son of David, "he that is feeble among them, shall be as David, and the house of David as God.

REPLY: David's house as God?

3. By the free gift :Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

REPLY: Right, Jesus is Son of Man

4. Power to raise Himself from the dead.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

REPLY: Jesus was not dying because of inherited sin as we do.
No one could make him die without his allowing it.

What was it that the priest questioned Jesus about? Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
As God, Jesus had the power!
Blessings, AJ

and....it was Jesus enemies that were accusing him in questioning form of blasphemy not recognizing Jesus was sent by God. Jesus admitted all authority that he had came from God.
[John 13v3; 3v35; 17v2; 5v19,30; 8v28; Matt 11v27; 28v18]

At Mark 2v12; Matt 9v8; Luke 5v26 says the people did not glorify Jesus [Son of Man] but that the people glorified God.

So as God's Son, Jesus had the God-given power to perform not only cures but forgiveness of sins.

Even decades after God resurrected Jesus to heaven [Acts 2v32], Jesus at Revelation 2v18 still considers himself to be: the Son of God.

 

[look3467]

REPLY: Son. Not: thou art God

To whom else was this said to?
Does that not imply God having Jesus' back?
And if so, does it not give Jesus full Godhead authority as God?
To whom else was this authority to forgive sins given to if God is the only one who can forgive sins?

REPLY: David's house as God?

Recall this verse: Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Not Solomon, but Jesus as in: Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Take note here, that of the fruit of thy body, in meaning, not a direct descendant, as in a later generation, but as a son of David, one who died 7 days after he was born.

2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Note: who is the one that is establishing here, and who is the one (Jesus)that is building the house that is for ever?
Ref: Psa 127:1 <A Song of degrees for Solomon.> Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.
God builds the house, not mankind, yet Jesus as man is given the task of building the house of God as God.

What is this house God built called: Job 39:6 Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.

Define wilderness, as a person, who is it whose kingdom shall never end?

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Except God build the house, mankind labor in vain.

This House then God builds is the wilderness, of which this wilderness is Jesus.

Isa 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Unto which of the prophets, or Jewish patriarchs has God said, "this is my beloved son"?

Listen all, there needs be no direct declaration by Jesus that He is God, for He could not state that fact in the form of a servant, but at the cross, as God was able to redeem the world.

Now tell me, by what other name under heaven can mankind be saved?

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

According to Scripture Acts 4v12 there is not another name given.....Who gave that name to Mary before Jesus was born? Luke 1vs30-32
Who does it say will 'give' to Jesus the throne of David?

Doesn't Jesus say at John 10v25 his works are done in his Father's name.....?
Continuing at John 12v28 Jesus says Father, glorify your name.....
In prayer to God, Jesus prayed at John 17v6 that he manifested God's name....
and in verse 26 Jesus declared God's name and will declare it.....

Isn't that why the glorified resurrected Jesus could say at Rev. 3v12 that Jesus himself would write ....the name of his God?
What does Psalm 89v26 say?

Isaiah 16v5 does mention one throne and one person upon it.
However, doesn't Revelation 3v21 mention two [2] thrones?
Both have their own throne. My Father's throne and my [Jesus] throne.

Since Jesus is the crowned King of God's kingdom then yes, God performs and places Jesus upon the throne of David, until Jesus, according to 1st Cor 15vs24-28, delivers up the kingdom back to God........

 

[look3467]

Since Jesus is the crowned King of God's kingdom then yes, God performs and places Jesus upon the throne of David, until Jesus, according to 1st Cor 15vs24-28, delivers up the kingdom back to God........

Which He did! it is finished!

Blessings, AJ