Did Jesus say he was God???

[waitasec]

now, onto the rest of your post...

I am sorry, but I still don’t understand your thoughts here or exactly the point you are making.

the way god is understood is through indifference.
for instance...cancer survivors are either believers or non believers
a tsunami doesn't pick and choose who to drown
earthquakes effect EVERYONE in the region
landing the perfect job happens to both believers and unbelievers
diseases do not discriminate...
every human being is subjected to their environment and their parents biases
and even in your bible the contradiction lies with this very interesting episode...if god intended for us to be with him, instead of a flood why not impregnate a virgin?

He is certainly a deviant from God’s standards. He fulfills his own lust and uses and abuses another human being for his own selfish pleasure. God calls it sin. As long as we humans are living in sin then our wiring is skewed, too.

no he is a deviant under human standards...
do you really think while wondering around in the wilderness the people god was leading to the promised land didn't know that murder, theft and lying was wrong?
the 'do unto others' and 'love your neighbor' was a concept already in play in other parts of the world...it is not an exclusive idea to the abrahamic religion.
besides dueternomy 20/levitcus 19 was about keeping solidarity between the general assembly of israel...and just 1 book away, moses lead the israelites to murder men/women and little boys who happened to be midianites and kept the little girls for the raping...
numbers 31...
so i guess love you neighbor didn't mean the same as we understand it today...i wonder if the age of enlightenment had anything to do with that?

It sounds like you should be in agreement with God’s perspective which says deviants or sinners of any kind should be and will be locked up.

it sounds like you assumed i would fight for the right of deviant behavior...

When you say, “why create it? What is the “it”you are referring to?

evil...

You can’t love God if don’t believe. I think it more an issue of refusing to believe rather than not believing, or knowing.

you do realize that you have just appointed yourself as a judge of my thoughts...
how can you possibly assume i refuse to believe?
you are blatantly admitting that you assume because i don't believe it's because i refuse to...can you see how presumptuous that comes off as?
but i don't blame you...you are following what scriptures says...

1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 5:18,19
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

you believe the bible is the infallible word of god therefore you believe that i am a wicked liar because every inclination of my nature is evil...i can't help it...right?

The scriptures make it clear that everyone knows there is a God or Creator, yet refuse to acknowledge this. If this is true and this truth is in every person’s conscience, but they refuse to even consider it, then they are not interested in knowing their Creator, much less understanding His love and loving Him in return.

how do you know this truth is in every persons conscience?
is it because of what romans 1:19,20 says?
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

my question to you is, how are invisible qualities made plain for all to see?
we didn't have microscopes or telescopes, radar, sonar, or systems to detect infrared radiation when this idea of gods invisible qualities came about...
are you telling me then, when someone is sick because of a viral infection and not because they are cursed by god...it's really not a virus which we can plainly see through microscopes, but it's god...?
and if a person who is chemically imbalanced is actually possessed?

The point for a Christian is to be conformed to the image of Christ and have their thoughts, attitudes and actions become more Christ-like through the relationships and situations that occur in this life on earth. This does make for a better life here on earth in many ways, but it depends on your definition of better. God’s perspective is eternal and that is what the believer’s perspective should be, also.

then why are teen pregnancies, STD's and divorce more prevalent in religious countries than in secular countries?
and again you make it seem as though having christ in your life makes you happier than i am...i can understand saying christ in your life makes you happier than you were before but what you are implying is pretty much a statement of wishful thinking based on false pretenses from a sense of superiority under false pretenses; that unbelievers are not capable of leading moral and happy lives just like believers are capable of...

You have a point here, God, as the Creator and sustainer of life, does have the prerogative to have His creatures dependent on Him. I’d say this is just reality, we are dependent on Him whether we realize it or not. The difference is in motive, Mac’s motive is to make profit for itself. God’s motive is to share His love, joy, peace, creativity, and more with those He created forever.

ok then if it is gods right for his creation to depend on him, why not make it so..? as i just pointed out to you, we experience 'god' through indifference.
your labels of god contradicts the very notion of his prerogative.
love knows no boundaries yet god has set them.
where is the joy and peace knowing that a large number of people are being eternally punished for being unbelievers?
interesting that you say creativity...
i am a song writer and when i write a song the song becomes it's own force and as the creator of that song i have no choice but to stay true to my integrity that this force does what it was created for...
so apparently god makes mistakes, according to the infallible word of god.

The problem I see with your analogy is that people are not like computers and sin is not like a computer virus. Computers are programmed and are not free to think for themselves. Viruses which infect computers come from an outside source. God did not make computers or human robots He made us in His image with the ability to think, reason, and create.

and not happy when we utilize those abilities

Unlike a virus, sin comes from within when a person allows wrong, harmful thoughts and desires to grow and are acted upon affecting oneself or others.

yes it comes from within, exactly..god created us with the ability to sin

You are certainly free to have your opinion, but the only failure I see are humans attempting to operate on their own ( causing a lot of problems)

human rights is a problem?
i'm not sure what you mean...what kinds of problems are you talking about?

If God chose your first option, then evil, violence, and every harmful behavior would be rampant for eternity.

what is your definition of love?
in regards to day to day living, the believers righteousness certainly hasn't made an impact for the here and now...
Teenage pregnancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Divorce rate statistics - countries compared - Nationmaster

Compare Birth Rates, Abortion Rates and Number of Partners (washingtonpost.com)

U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas

News - USA: Underage sex tourism thriving in Bible belt

It would be worse than letting all the child molesters, serial killers, rapists, and swindlers out of all the prisons.

but the reality is that isn't the norm...wonder how that could possibly be in a godless world?

I suppose God could have limited our thinking ability and just trained us like animals, but since He chose to make us in His image He must have wanted to share a relationship that is personal and requires mutual understanding. Would you prefer to be like a trained dog that obeyed and loved its Master?

ah but you see, this very idea gives the believer an undue sense of importance...i am on gods side...a very dangerous ideal to live by...
what is the difference between this line of thinking and of those that fly into buildings in the name of their almighty god?

...and horses at least know enough to drink water in order to live

which is not a subjective reality but an absolute truth

 

[InChrist]

so because i do not believe god exists i am evil...me, a law abiding, tax paying citizen of the world who helps old ladies cross the street and and assists the poor... is considered reprehensible because the ultimatum of non belief in god is to be condemned...? i am a child of darkness and you are a child of light right...even though i follow my integrity?


i'll respond to the rest tomorrow...

[FONT=&quot] I am not comparing myself to you. I have no reason to think that I am better than you or to doubt that you are a nice person who does good things. For all I know, you may have done many more good things in your life than I have. But compared to God’s perfect goodness the scriptures say everyone falls short and everyone sins. I think as humans we make light of sin, but God doesn’t. I don’t know what wrong things you have done and it's none of my business, but I know my own wrongs. I know that even when I or others are being nice people most of the time, sin still at times takes place in the form of selfish, inconsiderate, hateful, or angry thoughts or actions. I don’t know anyone who is immune, except Jesus Christ lived a human life that was sin free. I find it is a relief to honestly admit this reality about myself, agree with God, and accept His method of forgiveness and freedom through Christ.
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[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]The various points you have brought up in your last post responding to me have become quite numerous. I will try to respond to each of them, but it may take me awhile since my time to spend on the computer is limited. If you have a certain point you would like me to respond to first, I could, otherwise I’ll just take the time to go through each one.
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[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]I just want to say that I would prefer to have a conversation of understanding and respect even though we disagree. If you feel you I have assumed things about you, I am sorry. I have no desire to do so.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you want to tell me, I am wondering what your religious background was or what church or denomination you were raised in? I was raised in the Catholicism which I rejected at age 17. At age 32, I trusted Christ.[/FONT]

 

[waitasec]

I just want to say that I would prefer to have a conversation of understanding and respect even though we disagree. If you feel you I have assumed things about you, I am sorry. I have no desire to do so.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you want to tell me, I am wondering what your religious background was or what church or denomination you were raised in? I was raised in the Catholicism which I rejected at age 17. At age 32, I trusted Christ.[/FONT]

:rainbow1:

just remember we are discussing ideals...
nothing is personal...well at least that would be ideal

i was raised as a born again evangelical 4 square christian until the age of 25...and thus far for 20 yrs, a non theist.

 

[InChrist]

:rainbow1:

just remember we are discussing ideals...
nothing is personal...well at least that would be ideal

i was raised as a born again evangelical 4 square christian until the age of 25...and thus far for 20 yrs, a non theist.

[FONT=&quot]I can understand how someone could be raised evangelical or in the Foursquare Church, but I don’t understand and I know it is not possible to raised “born again”. Since becoming a Christian, I have met and talked to many who were raised by Christian parents who have said there came a point in their life when the faith they were taught became real for them and a true relationship with Jesus Christ began or they were born again. I was born again over twenty years ago and it was a life-transforming experience where my perspectives, attitudes and entire worldview were changed in less than 12 hours. This was not something I decided to do or could have done. God changed me and not only me, but my husband also. We were not in a church or with anyone else. The Bible says that when this happens to someone they become a new creation in Christ. I don’t believe it is possible for anyone who is born again to become unborn or for a new creation to revert back to their previous state. Many people have turned their back on the religion they were raised with, but those who know and are in a relationship with the living Savior have no desire to ever be apart from Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I had a very special experience involving the Foursquare Church. Within a few months of knowing Christ, my husband and I were invited to a Wed. evening Bible study/prayer meeting at the local Foursquare Church. I suppose this is something you would be familiar with, but I wasn’t. Church meetings and “Christian” activities were not something I was used to. When everyone in the whole room started speaking in the gibberish of tongues and waving their hands around I thought it was pretty strange and I was very uncomfortable. I also thought the teacher was saying some things which didn’t seem to agree with the little I knew of the scriptures.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One night I stayed home instead of going. I had some excuse, but I really just didn’t want to go. As I was alone I started to ask Jesus about what was going on at the Foursquare Church. Although I felt like something was not right I really did not understand and wanted the Lord’s direction. I cannot fully describe what happened after I started to talk to the Lord about this, but it seemed the room was filled with His presence and I felt such love, comfort, and peace. I felt a complete reassurance that my sense of unease about the prayer meeting was okay and I knew the right answer was to stop going. When my husband got home later, he had also had thoughts that he really didn’t want to continue going. That was my experience with the Foursquare Church, but I suppose every one varies[/FONT]

 

[waitasec]

[FONT=&quot]I can understand how someone could be raised evangelical or in the Foursquare Church, but I don’t understand and I know it is not possible to raised “born again”. Since becoming a Christian, I have met and talked to many who were raised by Christian parents who have said there came a point in their life when the faith they were taught became real for them and a true relationship with Jesus Christ began or they were born again.

let me put in to you like this...
i was born again at the age of 7 and rededicated my life many many times since...my aspirations where to be in the ministry and do missionary work,
went to bible college when oddly enough was the time my doubts began to surface...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I was born again over twenty years ago and it was a life-transforming experience where my perspectives, attitudes and entire worldview were changed in less than 12 hours. This was not something I decided to do or could have done. God changed me and not only me, but my husband also. We were not in a church or with anyone else. The Bible says that when this happens to someone they become a new creation in Christ. I don’t believe it is possible for anyone who is born again to become unborn or for a new creation to revert back to their previous state. Many people have turned their back on the religion they were raised with, but those who know and are in a relationship with the living Savior have no desire to ever be apart from Him.

I had a very special experience involving the Foursquare Church. Within a few months of knowing Christ, my husband and I were invited to a Wed. evening Bible study/prayer meeting at the local Foursquare Church. I suppose this is something you would be familiar with, but I wasn’t. Church meetings and “Christian” activities were not something I was used to. When everyone in the whole room started speaking in the gibberish of tongues and waving their hands around I thought it was pretty strange and I was very uncomfortable. I also thought the teacher was saying some things which didn’t seem to agree with the little I knew of the scriptures.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One night I stayed home instead of going. I had some excuse, but I really just didn’t want to go. As I was alone I started to ask Jesus about what was going on at the Foursquare Church. Although I felt like something was not right I really did not understand and wanted the Lord’s direction. I cannot fully describe what happened after I started to talk to the Lord about this, but it seemed the room was filled with His presence and I felt such love, comfort, and peace. I felt a complete reassurance that my sense of unease about the prayer meeting was okay and I knew the right answer was to stop going. When my husband got home later, he had also had thoughts that he really didn’t want to continue going. That was my experience with the Foursquare Church, but I suppose every one varies[/FONT]

you and your husband are a very sensible people...
in my opinion either the bible is true or not...there is no middle ground...if applying to all human life.
my main issue is how this faith is understood as truth but it's always in a state of editing...and from what i have learned it was written for a certain time and for a certain people, which explain why there are so many denominations. granted there are many philosophical teachings in the bible that make sense, but that is not exclusive to the christian faith...

i am also of the opinion that people are defined by what they do not what they believe.

 

[InChrist]

now, onto the rest of your post...


the way god is understood is through indifference.

for instance...cancer survivors are either believers or non believers
a tsunami doesn't pick and choose who to drown
earthquakes effect EVERYONE in the region
landing the perfect job happens to both believers and unbelievers
diseases do not discriminate...
every human being is subjected to their environment and their parents biases
and even in your bible the contradiction lies with this very interesting episode...if god intended for us to be with him, instead of a flood why not impregnate a virgin?

Are you saying that because good and bad things happen to believers and non-believers it shows that God is indifferent or that it makes no difference whether one is a believer or not? If bad things affected only non-believers and good things believers would you then understand God differently?

no he is a deviant under human standards...

do you really think while wondering around in the wilderness the people god was leading to the promised land didn't know that murder, theft and lying was wrong?
the 'do unto others' and 'love your neighbor' was a concept already in play in other parts of the world...it is not an exclusive idea to the abrahamic religion.
besides dueternomy 20/levitcus 19 was about keeping solidarity between the general assembly of israel...and just 1 book away, moses lead the israelites to murder men/women and little boys who happened to be midianites and kept the little girls for the raping...
numbers 31...
so i guess love you neighbor didn't mean the same as we understand it today...i wonder if the age of enlightenment had anything to do with that?

Well, if the people in the regions around the wilderness where the children of Israel were wandering understood the ideas of “ loving their neighbors” and “doing unto others” they were certainly not putting these concepts into practice while they were burning their children in fires as they sacrificed them to idols. Throughout the history in the Old Testament it is recorded and shown that often when a nation or group of people became so perverse and wicked God used or allowed another nation or group of people to conquer them. Yet, He always gave warning and opportunity for them to repent and be spared.
The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. (Jeremiah 18:7-8).
The Midianites along with the other surrounding peoples knew about the God of Israel and they had forty years to repent of their ways, but they refused. Not only did they refuse to stop their evil practices, but they purposely harassed, attacked, and attempted to lure the children of Israel into their idol worship and evil ways. God’s hatred of sin and wickedness is consistent and He shows no partiality as the same thing happened to Israel when they turned from the Lord and idol worship along with evil practices.
Then the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD. So the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian for seven years, 2 and the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel. (Judges 6:1-2)
You are inserting your own ideas and words into the scriptural history which are not there when you assume little girls were raped. The text does not say they were raped. First, from the research I’ve done, using children for sex was not a part of the Hebrew culture as it later was in Greece and Rome and It would have been an abomination before God. Secondly, God had already given the laws against rape to Israel. Thirdly, since the Israelite men had been commanded not to have sexual relations with Moabite and Midianite women (Num. 25:1-9)and having already experienced plagues and executions for doing so, it is not plausible that the soldiers raped little girls.

it sounds like you assumed i would fight for the right of deviant behavior...

[FONT=&quot]

No, I don't assume you would.

evil...

I do not believe or think it is possible that God created evil. He did create beings with the ability to trust His goodness. Evil occurs when God’s goodness is refused and self and pride is the goal instead.

you do realize that you have just appointed yourself as a judge of my thoughts...
how can you possibly assume i refuse to believe?
you are blatantly admitting that you assume because i don't believe it's because i refuse to...can you see how presumptuous that comes off as?
but i don't blame you...you are following what scriptures says...

1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 5:18,19
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

you believe the bible is the infallible word of god therefore you believe that i am a wicked liar because every inclination of my nature is evil...i can't help it...right?

You asked a question: here you say god can't make you love him, then jesus says those who don't believe are condemned...and how can you love him if you don't believe him? And I gave an answer. I don’t believe one can love God if they don’t believe in Him. I was not presuming anything about you or your personal thoughts. My answer was directed at humanity in general, including myself and my own attitudes of ignorance and blindness toward God in the past.


[/FONT]


My response including your comments had too many characters so I will have to post in two parts. I think our posts are getting too long with too many points or thoughts in each one.

 

[InChrist]

Part 2:

how do you know this truth is in every persons conscience?
is it because of what romans 1:19,20 says?
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

my question to you is, how are invisible qualities made plain for all to see?
we didn't have microscopes or telescopes, radar, sonar, or systems to detect infrared radiation when this idea of gods invisible qualities came about...
are you telling me then, when someone is sick because of a viral infection and not because they are cursed by god...it's really not a virus which we can plainly see through microscopes, but it's god...?
and if a person who is chemically imbalanced is actually possessed?

Yes, Romans and other scriptures indicate that everyone knows there is a Creator or God and a person’s conscience attests to this. I believe this is verified through history which demonstrates that all cultures have had some sort of religious or spiritual practice, though they may be corrupted. Even non-theists seem to be obsessed with talking about a God they don’t believe exists.
I am only saying that the scriptures verify that God’s invisible qualities of power and His creative ability are made visible for everyone to see. ..the earth, the heavens, stars, oceans, mountains, trees, flowers, animals, etc.

then why are teen pregnancies, STD's and divorce more prevalent in religious countries than in secular countries?
and again you make it seem as though having christ in your life makes you happier than i am...i can understand saying christ in your life makes you happier than you were before but what you are implying is pretty much a statement of wishful thinking based on false pretenses from a sense of superiority under false pretenses; that unbelievers are not capable of leading moral and happy lives just like believers are capable of...

I never said religion, Christian or otherwise, improves society or prevents problems. I said Christ makes a difference in an individual’s life and He has made a difference in mine. I don’t recall saying I am happier than you are.

ok then if it is gods right for his creation to depend on him, why not make it so..? as i just pointed out to you, we experience 'god' through indifference.
your labels of god contradicts the very notion of his prerogative.
love knows no boundaries yet god has set them.
where is the joy and peace knowing that a large number of people are being eternally punished for being unbelievers?
interesting that you say creativity...
i am a song writer and when i write a song the song becomes it's own force and as the creator of that song i have no choice but to stay true to my integrity that this force does what it was created for...
so apparently god makes mistakes, according to the infallible word of god.

All I know is that God created every person to share in His love and live eternally with Him in beauty, joy, and peace, expressing the creativity He gave them as being made in His image. I believe Jesus already bore each one’s punishment. Those who are not in heaven with God for eternity and suffer because they are disconnected with the source of life and light are missing the joys they could have had only because they refused to accept God’s gift and wanted nothing to do with Him. As you write your songs. I am sure you refine them, staying true to your integrity as you say, getting them to the point where you consider them to be perfect or to express what you are creating them to express. This is how God works in each person’s life through life’s circumstances. Yet, He allows every individual the opportunity to participate in the process. He does not make mistakes, He desires mutual love and allows freedom.

and not happy when we utilize those abilities

I’m sure God is happy when our abilities are exercised in ways that are not self-centered or evil.

yes it comes from within, exactly..god created us with the ability to sin

Yes, to allow real love and freedom the ability to sin had to be an option, but it did not have to be chosen.

human rights is a problem?
i'm not sure what you mean...what kinds of problems are you talking about?


what is your definition of love?
in regards to day to day living, the believers righteousness certainly hasn't made an impact for the here and now...
Teenage pregnancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Divorce rate statistics - countries compared - Nationmaster

Compare Birth Rates, Abortion Rates and Number of Partners (washingtonpost.com)

U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas

News - USA: Underage sex tourism thriving in Bible belt

My definition of love in this context is the Biblical agape love which loving another before self.
The problems I’m talking about are like the ones you’ve listed above; divorce, teen pregnancy, drunk drivers harming others, domestic violence, etc. As I said above, I don’t believe religion is the answer. Just because people claim to be Christians and then live selfishly doing their own thing as happens so often, then I wouldn’t expect to see any positive impact on society. But, those who have committed their lives to serving Christ and others have made a difference.

but the reality is that isn't the norm...wonder how that could possibly be in a godless world?

Again, it is because God has given everyone a conscious awareness of right and wrong, therefore we know to keep criminals who do bad things locked up.

ah but you see, this very idea gives the believer an undue sense of importance...i am on gods side...a very dangerous ideal to live by...
what is the difference between this line of thinking and of those that fly into buildings in the name of their almighty god?

If one knows, loves, and trusts Jesus Christ there is no room for self-importance. If one is loving others before self they would never consider terrorism.

 

[Muffled]

let me put in to you like this...
i was born again at the age of 7 and rededicated my life many many times since...my aspirations where to be in the ministry and do missionary work,
went to bible college when oddly enough was the time my doubts began to surface...



you and your husband are a very sensible people...
in my opinion either the bible is true or not...there is no middle ground...if applying to all human life.
my main issue is how this faith is understood as truth but it's always in a state of editing...and from what i have learned it was written for a certain time and for a certain people, which explain why there are so many denominations. granted there are many philosophical teachings in the bible that make sense, but that is not exclusive to the christian faith...

i am also of the opinion that people are defined by what they do not what they believe.

[/size]

The question is whether you asked Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. If not you were not born again. A dedication to service can be done without knowing Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[Muffled]

[FONT=&quot]I can understand how someone could be raised evangelical or in the Foursquare Church, but I don’t understand and I know it is not possible to raised “born again”. Since becoming a Christian, I have met and talked to many who were raised by Christian parents who have said there came a point in their life when the faith they were taught became real for them and a true relationship with Jesus Christ began or they were born again. I was born again over twenty years ago and it was a life-transforming experience where my perspectives, attitudes and entire worldview were changed in less than 12 hours. This was not something I decided to do or could have done. God changed me and not only me, but my husband also. We were not in a church or with anyone else. The Bible says that when this happens to someone they become a new creation in Christ. I don’t believe it is possible for anyone who is born again to become unborn or for a new creation to revert back to their previous state. Many people have turned their back on the religion they were raised with, but those who know and are in a relationship with the living Savior have no desire to ever be apart from Him.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]I had a very special experience involving the Foursquare Church. Within a few months of knowing Christ, my husband and I were invited to a Wed. evening Bible study/prayer meeting at the local Foursquare Church. I suppose this is something you would be familiar with, but I wasn’t. Church meetings and “Christian” activities were not something I was used to. When everyone in the whole room started speaking in the gibberish of tongues and waving their hands around I thought it was pretty strange and I was very uncomfortable. I also thought the teacher was saying some things which didn’t seem to agree with the little I knew of the scriptures. [/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]One night I stayed home instead of going. I had some excuse, but I really just didn’t want to go. As I was alone I started to ask Jesus about what was going on at the Foursquare Church. Although I felt like something was not right I really did not understand and wanted the Lord’s direction. I cannot fully describe what happened after I started to talk to the Lord about this, but it seemed the room was filled with His presence and I felt such love, comfort, and peace. I felt a complete reassurance that my sense of unease about the prayer meeting was okay and I knew the right answer was to stop going. When my husband got home later, he had also had thoughts that he really didn’t want to continue going. That was my experience with the Foursquare Church, but I suppose every one varies[/FONT]

It is impossible to be raised "born again."

It is obvious that you were not in peace in the Bible Study/prayer meeting, it was because you wre not in the spirit of God but in your own spirit. I think you have misconstrued your answer. When asking Jesus about it He responded with the peace you were lacking at meeting, it seems to me He was saying that you should be at peace with it.

Having a relationship where you can ask Jesus about things tends to reduce variances since the source is the same. You are correct though if you are understanding that the source of the variance is yourself. We all have a tendency to filter the messages of God through our own understanding and desires. That is why it is better to have someone take a more objective look at it for you.

I attended a Four Square church for several years. The Bible study/prayer groups are called cell groups. I found out that the church took exception to my belief that the Trinity is not made up of three persons. The attitude the elders portrayed was that the Bible didn't matter, because only the leaders of the church could know the truth and be an authority for the church. In this way it was as authoritarian as the Roman Catholic church in that when the top man is wrong the whole church is wrong. I don't attend now because the elders have an injunction on me not to speak of theology in their church.

 

[waitasec]

The question is whether you asked Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. If not you were not born again. A dedication to service can be done without knowing Jesus as Lord and Savior.

well yes i did...

and when i did, i became more fearful of everything...
literally felt the presence of the devil, especially when i was around unbelievers

 

[waitasec]

It is obvious that you were not in peace in the Bible Study/prayer meeting, it was because you wre not in the spirit of God but in your own spirit. I think you have misconstrued your answer. When asking Jesus about it He responded with the peace you were lacking at meeting, it seems to me He was saying that you should be at peace with it.

matthew 7:1
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

are you appointing yourself as her trustworthy filter?

That is why it is better to have someone take a more objective look at it for you.

 

[waitasec]

Having a relationship where you can ask Jesus about things tends to reduce variances since the source is the same.

like helping the cause for aids as opposed to picketing gay soldiers funerals?

You are correct though if you are understanding that the source of the variance is yourself. We all have a tendency to filter the messages of God through our own understanding and desires. That is why it is better to have someone take a more objective look at it for you.

like who? :areyoucra
and how do you know this person is objective, through your own presumed untrustworthy filter?

 

[Muffled]

matthew 7:1
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

are you appointing yourself as her trustworthy filter?

I am as objective as anyone she could find. That does not mean that I am the only person in the world who is objective or that I am the only person with a relationship with Jesus.

 

[waitasec]

I am as objective as anyone she could find. That does not mean that I am the only person in the world who is objective or that I am the only person with a relationship with Jesus.

how exactly did i imply that?

:foot:


who are you to be telling her that...?
you don't even know her...

 

[Muffled]

like helping the cause for aids as opposed to picketing gay soldiers funerals?

Are you saying that there is a Christian consensus on those issues. I haven't seen one. However one day a man was lowered through a ceiling to reach Jesus for a healing but Jesus forgave the man his sins first then healed him. Luke 5:20. Ah that explains why the media hypes it as picketing soldiers and forgets to mention that they were gay. The media is purposely deceiving people into thinking that the pickets have a problem with soldiers in general.

like who? :areyoucra
and how do you know this person is objective, through your own presumed untrustworthy filter?

That is an interesting observation. Obviously everyone comes with thier own understanding of things and their own relationship with Jesus. The safer course then is to have multiple counsellors (This is a Biblical word of wisdom). However numbers do not guarantee correct thinking. There are a multitude of people who believe tongues have ceased but those people are in error.

 

[waitasec]

That is an interesting observation. Obviously everyone comes with thier own understanding of things and their own relationship with Jesus. The safer course then is to have multiple counsellors (This is a Biblical word of wisdom). However numbers do not guarantee correct thinking. There are a multitude of people who believe tongues have ceased but those people are in error.

yeah, a bunch of guys thought is was gods will to fly into the world trade center too...
how were they to know they were in err...all they knew was that they were on gods side.

 

[Muffled]

This is why I say from a theological perspective all one has to do is look to Rev. 3:12 because here is the "ascended" Yeshua (Jesus) saying more than once that he has a god. Additionally one can not escape the cast of characters and events, if they understood who was who and what is going on, in Rev. 4 and 5. The "trinity" become moot when critically scrutinized from a biblical perspective.

There is a judgement that is done on the basis of appearances. For instance someone looks at Jesus and sees a human being. They are judging by an appearance. However Jesus say He is one with GOd which is a spiritual identity that does not appear to someone observing.

The same is true for Jesus saying "my God." A judgement can be made on the appearance that there are two separate persons. However Jesus has stated that there is only one person.

From a logical pov one can't rule out that there is one person simply because the statement suggests it. The observation fact does not rule out an alternate unseen fact.

So saying "my God" does not necessitate that Jesus is a separate person. That has to be proven. On the other hand Jesus saying that He is one with the Father rules out that there are two persons.

 

[waitasec]

Are you saying that because good and bad things happen to believers and non-believers it shows that God is indifferent or that it makes no difference whether one is a believer or not?

yes.
first off let me clairify that i am a non theist, not an atheist. there is a difference. perhaps to you i am an atheist since i do not believe any one can label an unknowable god. however, if there is a god, and i say if because, there is no way anyone can truly know, it takes too much of a commitment based on a notion or an opinion, and my mind does not operate like that.
so yes we understand nature (god) through indifference, we are in a constant state of improvising and because of our self awareness mixed with the ability to reason i think puts us in a interesting place but not necessarily better than animals.
i was watching this show on national geographic about stress…animals have this sense to give them an extra boost for whenever they are being attacked to help them escape from being eaten…humans however have evolved to where this innate sense is now becoming the number one reason for disease… we think too much, we stress out about too many things.

If bad things affected only non-believers and good things believers would you then understand God differently?

it would, but that isn’t how the real world works

Well, if the people in the regions around the wilderness where the children of Israel were wandering understood the ideas of “ loving their neighbors” and “doing unto others” they were certainly not putting these concepts into practice while they were burning their children in fires as they sacrificed them to idols.

interesting you mention sacrifices…a very common practice, however you must concede that within any tribe if there wasn’t a sense of solidarity there is no way the tribe can thrive… this is an innate sense you see even with animals that live in packs… besisdes the golden rule isn’t an exclusive idea belonging to the god of abraham… it was also an edict placed in the far east… confucius

Throughout the history in the Old Testament it is recorded and shown that often when a nation or group of people became so perverse and wicked God used or allowed another nation or group of people to conquer them. Yet, He always gave warning and opportunity for them to repent and be spared.
The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. (Jeremiah 18:7-8).

Interestingly enough, did they ever?

The Midianites along with the other surrounding peoples knew about the God of Israel and they had forty years to repent of their ways, but they refused. Not only did they refuse to stop their evil practices, but they purposely harassed, attacked, and attempted to lure the children of Israel into their idol worship and evil ways. God’s hatred of sin and wickedness is consistent and He shows no partiality as the same thing happened to Israel when they turned from the Lord and idol worship along with evil practices.
Then the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD. So the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian for seven years, 2 and the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel. (Judges 6:1-2)

it’s the classic justification for warfare… ‘my god is bigger than yours, so denounce your god and what ever keeps your solidarity among your people, or we will go in on the defensive/offensive’,
it’s a natural reaction…’you’ve taken our children to believe differently and now you must pay’. really there is no difference here than what you find in the quran.

You are inserting your own ideas and words into the scriptural history which are not there when you assume little girls were raped. The text does not say they were raped. First, from the research I’ve done, using children for sex was not a part of the Hebrew culture as it later was in Greece and Rome and It would have been an abomination before God. Secondly, God had already given the laws against rape to Israel. Thirdly, since the Israelite men had been commanded not to have sexual relations with Moabite and Midianite women (Num. 25:1-9)and having already experienced plagues and executions for doing so, it is not plausible that the soldiers raped little girls.

no they were punished because they sacrificed to their gods…
numbers 25
1 While Israel was staying in ****tim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor.

now lets move on to numbers 31
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
you don't find it odd that they had to be virgin girls? and why not save the virgin little boys too, if they were to become slaves? another interesting dilemma, slavery was condoned by the god of abraham, hmmm…
the golden rule didn't seem to include these children...

i think this was revenge of the worst kind…genocide and the raping of thier enemies children, yes…to breed slaves…no less.

I do not believe or think it is possible that God created evil. He did create beings with the ability to trust His goodness. Evil occurs when God’s goodness is refused and self and pride is the goal instead.

god created everything right…? or did he only create the good things? yet he regretted for doing so, because he didn’t have the foresight that the sons of god would be sleeping with the daughters of man…? and therefore destroyed his creation except for…

You asked a question: here you say god can't make you love him, then jesus says those who don't believe are condemned...and how can you love him if you don't believe him? And I gave an answer. I don’t believe one can love God if they don’t believe in Him. I was not presuming anything about you or your personal thoughts. My answer was directed at humanity in general, including myself and my own attitudes of ignorance and blindness toward God in the past.

fair enough.
but if I may ask…did you refuse meaning, decline to accept, or did you just not get it?

 

[waitasec]

Part 2:
Yes, Romans and other scriptures indicate that everyone knows there is a Creator or God and a person’s conscience attests to this. I believe this is verified through history which demonstrates that all cultures have had some sort of religious or spiritual practice, though they may be corrupted. Even non-theists seem to be obsessed with talking about a God they don’t believe exists.
I am only saying that the scriptures verify that God’s invisible qualities of power and His creative ability are made visible for everyone to see. ..the earth, the heavens, stars, oceans, mountains, trees, flowers, animals, etc

science has proven these things evolved.
let me show you this…
[youtube]vss1VKN2rf8[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪Evolution‬‏

my point being, if the people who conjured up this notion of god knew what we know today…I don’t think religion would mean the same thing…

I never said religion, Christian or otherwise, improves society or prevents problems. I said Christ makes a difference in an individual’s life and He has made a difference in mine. I don’t recall saying I am happier than you are.

this is what you said:

The point for a Christian is to be conformed to the image of Christ and have their thoughts, attitudes and actions become more Christ-like through the relationships and situations that occur in this life on earth. This does make for a better life here on earth in many ways,

so the point for a Christian, in this life, a life everyone is experiencing, excludes unbelievers…for obvious reasons. you excluded non believers when you say ‘christian’, so of course I am going to take it that way… but I also said: “i can understand saying christ in your life makes you happier than you were before but what you are implying is pretty much a statement of wishful thinking based on false pretenses “ because unbelievers thoughts and actions are just as viable as a believers in the real world. can you say there is a moral act that belongs exclusively to believers?

All I know is that God created every person to share in His love and live eternally with Him in beauty, joy, and peace, expressing the creativity He gave them as being made in His image.

I have no problem with this particular world view…

I believe Jesus already bore each one’s punishment.

it would be immoral of me to not be culpable for my own actions…
no one should ever be in the position to do that, otherwise what is left of a person?

Those who are not in heaven with God for eternity and suffer because they are disconnected with the source of life and light are missing the joys they could have had only because they refused to accept God’s gift and wanted nothing to do with Him.

there is that word again, refuse.
let me put it to you like this,
do you think an ant has any inkling of your presence before you make yourself known to it? do you think it has the slightest idea how small it is once you do? and do you think it is concerned of what you think of it?

As you write your songs. I am sure you refine them, staying true to your integrity as you say, getting them to the point where you consider them to be perfect or to express what you are creating them to express. This is how God works in each person’s life through life’s circumstances. Yet, He allows every individual the opportunity to participate in the process. He does not make mistakes, He desires mutual love and allows freedom

well he didn’t refine it with us, if you take the bible literally. He regretted our creation, and as an omniscient being…how could that be?
why didn’t he wipe out the entire planet? I’ll tell you why…because we are here…

I’m sure God is happy when our abilities are exercised in ways that are not self-centered or evil.

I’m guessing skepticism need not apply, besides seeking salvation is an act of selfishness.

Yes, to allow real love and freedom the ability to sin had to be an option, but it did not have to be chosen.

so yes god created evil…

Again, it is because God has given everyone a conscious awareness of right and wrong, therefore we know to keep criminals who do bad things locked up.

the definition of right and wrong is constantly changing…remember at one point slavery was condoned by the god of abraham…is being a slave owner a right?

If one knows, loves, and trusts Jesus Christ there is no room for self-importance. If one is loving others before self they would never consider terrorism.

terrorism, you mean what the israelites did to the midianite virgin girls wasn’t an act of terrorism?

 

[thebigpicture]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

I just need to know... how does it make sense for “God” to incarnate as a human being so he can be tormented and killed all just to save his children. Why would he go through all that when, if he has the power to, he can just save them and forgive them as he wants whenever he wants?