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Did Jesus say he was God???

waitasec

Veteran Member
I just need to know... how does it make sense for “God” to incarnate as a human being so he can be tormented and killed all just to save his children. Why would he go through all that when, if he has the power to, he can just save them and forgive them as he wants whenever he wants?


good question...it's as though in order to receive gods forgiveness it is dependent on his love being reciprocated...
isn't that a co-dependent passive aggressive type of relationship?


and i've often wondered why then did god almost destroy all of mankind because every inclination of the human heart is evil and then vowed not to do it again even though every inclination of the human heart would still be evil after the flood...why not just destroy all of man kind because he did after all regret creating human kind....and just start all over with a few adjustments?
oh yeah now i know why...it's because we, human kind, exist...
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
yes.
first off let me clairify that i am a non theist, not an atheist. there is a difference. perhaps to you i am an atheist since i do not believe any one can label an unknowable god. however, if there is a god, and i say if because, there is no way anyone can truly know, it takes too much of a commitment based on a notion or an opinion, and my mind does not operate like that.
so yes we understand nature (god) through indifference, we are in a constant state of improvising and because of our self awareness mixed with the ability to reason i think puts us in a interesting place but not necessarily better than animals.
i was watching this show on national geographic about stress…animals have this sense to give them an extra boost for whenever they are being attacked to help them escape from being eaten…humans however have evolved to where this innate sense is now becoming the number one reason for disease… we think too much, we stress out about too many things.


[FONT=&quot]Whether you classify yourself as an atheist or non-theist really makes no difference because your arguments are the same. I’ve had this same discussion with atheists who use the same Bible passages and the same arguments which they have gotten or linked from Skeptic’s annotated bible or some other atheist’s website. Their objective is to judge God and find fault with Him in any and every possible way, not unlike what it seems you enjoy doing, also. I suppose it would be stressful to be in constant opposition to one’s Creator and I believe that the stressful conditions of modern life are the result of humans living out of sync with the One they were designed to be in a relationship with.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matt. 11;29-29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Peace[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14;27[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I’m only going to address one of your points for now with the following excerpt and link to an article which deals with the subject.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]‘Secondly, the accusation that these girls were for “sex slave” purposes contradicts what we know[FONT=&quot] about the culture and about the event. [But at least one of the writers above--to their credit--added the word ‘presumably’, realizing that the text doesn’t actually say anything about it…][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1. Most girls were married soon/immediately after they began menstruating in the ANE (circa 12 years of age), and since infant and child mortality was so high, the average age of the girls spared would have been around 5 years of age or slightly lower (life expectancy wasn’t a straight line, with childhood risks so high). Of all the horrible things ascribed to Israel in the OT, pedophilia is the one conspicuous omission. That these little kids would have been even considered as ‘sex slaves’ seems quite incongruent with their ages.[/FONT]
And, at this tender age, they would not have been very useful as ‘slaves’ at all! Children raised in Israelite households were ‘put to work’ around this age, sometimes doing light chores to help the mother for up to four hours per day by the age of 7 or 8 [OT:FAI:27], but 5 is still a bit young. Instead, the Israelite families would have had to feed, clothe, train, care, protect, and shelter them for several years before they could make much contribution to the family’s existence and survival. [Also note that ‘slavery’ in the ANE/OT generally means something quite different from “New World” slavery, which we normally associate with the world ‘slavery’, and most of what is called that in popular literature should not be so termed. See qnoslave.html for the discussion and documentation.]”
“4. Even if we allow the age range to be older, to include girls capable of bearing children, the probability is that it was not sex-motivated, but population/economics-motivated, as Carol Meyers points out [“The Roots of Restriction: Women in Early Israel”, Biblical Archaeologist, vol 41):
“Beyond this, however, the intensified need for female participation in working out the Mosaic revolution in the early Israelite period can be seen in the Bible. Looking again at Numbers 31, an exception to the total purge of the Midianite population is to be noted. In addition to the metal objects which were exempt from utter destruction, so too were the “young girls who have not known man by lying with him” (Num 31:18). These captives, however, were not immediately brought into the Israelite camp. Instead, they and their captors were kept outside the camp for seven days in a kind of quarantine period. (Note that the usual incubation period for the kinds of infectious diseases which could conceivably have existed in this situation is two or three to six days [Eickhoff 1977].) Afterward, they thoroughly washed themselves and all their clothing before they entered the camp. This incident is hardly an expression of lascivious male behavior; rather, it reflects the desperate need for women of childbearing age, a need so extreme that the utter destruction of the Midianite foes—and the prevention of death by plague—as required by the law of the herem could be waived in the interest of sparing the young women. The Israelites weighed the life-death balance, and the need for females of childbearing age took precedence.”

Excerpt from:What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites
 

InChrist

Free4ever
It is obvious that you were not in peace in the Bible Study/prayer meeting, it was because you wre not in the spirit of God but in your own spirit. I think you have misconstrued your answer. When asking Jesus about it He responded with the peace you were lacking at meeting, it seems to me He was saying that you should be at peace with it.


[FONT=&quot]I have to disagree with you.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I was not at peace because the spirit at the meeting was not of God. It was emotional and carnal, maybe even demonic. I have learned over the years that God gives me a strong sense of warning when something is spiritually wrong. This was verified to me over the next couple of years concerning this situation as we saw many of the people, including leaders, at this Foursquare church having affairs, getting divorced, and living messed up lives, along with teaching strange doctrines. As a fairly new Christian I was shocked that people could talk so much about God…the Lord this and the Lord that, even telling me that I must not be baptized in the spirit because I did not speak in tongues and yet within a matter of months they were cheating on their spouse or participating in some other behavior contrary to the Bible they claimed to believe.

[/FONT]
 

earlwooters

Active Member
Words on paper are proof of nothing. Wouldn't it be better to prove God exists first, the worry about people who claim to be God?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Whether you classify yourself as an atheist or non-theist really makes no difference because your arguments are the same.
i know that is why i said,
perhaps to you i am an atheist since i do not believe any one can label an unknowable god. however, if there is a god, and i say if because, there is no way anyone can truly know, it takes too much of a commitment based on a notion or an opinion, and my mind does not operate like that.



I’ve had this same discussion with atheists who use the same Bible passages and the same arguments which they have gotten or linked from Skeptic’s annotated bible or some other atheist’s website. Their objective is to judge God and find fault with Him in any and every possible way, not unlike what it seems you enjoy doing, also. I suppose it would be stressful to be in constant opposition to one’s Creator and I believe that the stressful conditions of modern life are the result of humans living out of sync with the One they were designed to be in a relationship with.


[FONT=&quot]Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matt. 11;29-29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Peace[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14;27[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I’m only going to address one of your points for now with the following excerpt and link to an article which deals with the subject.
[/FONT]

have you ever considered it isn't really about god, it's the notion of being in a position to able to define this ideal you call god?


‘Secondly, the accusation that these girls were for “sex slave” purposes contradicts what we know about the culture and about the event. But at least one of the writers above--to their credit--added the word ‘presumably’, realizing that the text doesn’t actually say anything about it…
1. Most girls were married soon/immediately after they began menstruating in the ANE (circa 12 years of age), and since infant and child mortality was so high, the average age of the girls spared would have been around 5 years of age or slightly lower (life expectancy wasn’t a straight line, with childhood risks so high). Of all the horrible things ascribed to Israel in the OT, pedophilia is the one conspicuous omission. That these little kids would have been even considered as ‘sex slaves’ seems quite incongruent with their ages.
And, at this tender age, they would not have been very useful as ‘slaves’ at all! Children raised in Israelite households were ‘put to work’ around this age, sometimes doing light chores to help the mother for up to four hours per day by the age of 7 or 8 [OT:FAI:27], but 5 is still a bit young. Instead, the Israelite families would have had to feed, clothe, train, care, protect, and shelter them for several years before they could make much contribution to the family’s existence and survival. [Also note that ‘slavery’ in the ANE/OT generally means something quite different from “New World” slavery, which we normally associate with the world ‘slavery’, and most of what is called that in popular literature should not be so termed. See qnoslave.html for the discussion and documentation.]”
“4. Even if we allow the age range to be older, to include girls capable of bearing children, the probability is that it was not sex-motivated, but population/economics-motivated, as Carol Meyers points out [“The Roots of Restriction: Women in Early Israel”, Biblical Archaeologist, vol 41):

“Beyond this, however, the intensified need for female participation in working out the Mosaic revolution in the early Israelite period can be seen in the Bible. Looking again at Numbers 31, an exception to the total purge of the Midianite population is to be noted. In addition to the metal objects which were exempt from utter destruction, so too were the “young girls who have not known man by lying with him” (Num 31:18). These captives, however, were not immediately brought into the Israelite camp. Instead, they and their captors were kept outside the camp for seven days in a kind of quarantine period. (Note that the usual incubation period for the kinds of infectious diseases which could conceivably have existed in this situation is two or three to six days [Eickhoff 1977].) Afterward, they thoroughly washed themselves and all their clothing before they entered the camp. This incident is hardly an expression of lascivious male behavior; rather, it reflects the desperate need for women of childbearing age, a need so extreme that the utter destruction of the Midianite foes—and the prevention of death by plague—as required by the law of the herem could be waived in the interest of sparing the young women. The Israelites weighed the life-death balance, and the need for females of childbearing age took precedence.” [/I][/FONT]
Excerpt from:What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites

so put yourself in the shoes of a young girl who's parents and little brother were killed by this tribe that is now enslaving you...
sorry, it doesn't add up to a peaceful loving god, does it...
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Did Jesus say He was not God ?


Their bible says.....

Mark 10:17-18
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.


Seems clear and straight forward to me.....
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
There bible says.....

Mark 10:17-18
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.


Seems clear and straight forward to me.....

according to mark that is... ;)
 

InChrist

Free4ever
have you ever considered it isn't really about god, it's the notion of being in a position to able to define this ideal you call god?


I’m not exactly sure what you mean, maybe you can clarify a little. Have you considered asking God directly to define who He is?




so put yourself in the shoes of a young girl who's parents and little brother were killed by this tribe that is now enslaving you...
sorry, it doesn't add up to a peaceful loving god, does it...
[/quote]


I hate war and think it is awful. So from my human perspective I can understand what you are saying. The difference between you and me is that I trust God and you don’t. It seems you have already determined that a God you don't believe exists is cruel and evil, while I don’t believe He does things randomly, without reason, or to be malicious. On the contrary, I trust that everything the God I know does exist, He does for the purpose of ultimately bringing about good. So I don’t believe He would have commanded the Israelites to attack the Midianites unless their culture and practices had become so depraved and wicked beyond any hope of change. I’m sure it was hard for the girls, but life in their own culture could well have been much harder had they faced being burned and sacrificed to idols, growing up to sacrifice their own child, prostitution, or whatever else their future may have held in that culture. I am not convinced that the girls were taken or treated as slaves, but unlike the surrounding nations Israel had laws which forbid harsh treatment of slaves.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I’m not exactly sure what you mean, maybe you can clarify a little. Have you considered asking God directly to define who He is?
well, how can i ask something that doesn't exist? however, there are those who do believe and
the notion of being in a position to able to define something in the abstract is only going to be
subjected to personal biases. imo, that is why god is understood in so many ways, because this view
depends on subjective understanding and not on observable evidence.

I hate war and think it is awful. So from my human perspective I can understand what you are saying.
that is the only perspective i can have.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
well, how can i ask something that doesn't exist? however, there are those who do believe and
the notion of being in a position to able to define something in the abstract is only going to be
subjected to personal biases. imo, that is why god is understood in so many ways, because this view
depends on subjective understanding and not on observable evidence.



Okay, I understand what you mean. But the scriptures present God as a personal being who sees, hears, and responds when a person seeks to know Him or know if He is real. I realize you don’t believe this Being exists, but you have also said no one can truly know because if there is a God He is unknowable. Since the Bible and believers say that God can be known and He does respond, then anyone should be able to see if this is true by asking Him directly.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Okay, I understand what you mean. But the scriptures present God as a personal being who sees, hears, and responds when a person seeks to know Him or know if He is real. I realize you don’t believe this Being exists, but you have also said no one can truly know because if there is a God He is unknowable. Since the Bible and believers say that God can be known and He does respond, then anyone should be able to see if this is true by asking Him directly.

personally it is not an issue with me if someone holds this belief...
what i take issue is when personal belief trumps personal freedoms...
i watched that video wombat put up
at about 5 minutes in he says this:
there are more laws being enacted now and they're calling it hate speech, if you tell the truth and it hurts...if you are critical of another persons religion in either writing or in word, it's against the law....
(paraphrased) we are going to have to pay a $36,000 fine for telling the truth.
[youtube]LbDWZx_huVk[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪Antichrist Activities and Michael Jackson's Funeral‬‏

this guy thinks his religious beliefs trump others (apparently a lady sitting in the pews agrees)...and not only that, this implies all sorts of hot button issues are to be controlled by those that adhere to the truth
 

InChrist

Free4ever
personally it is not an issue with me if someone holds this belief...
what i take issue is when personal belief trumps personal freedoms...
i watched that video wombat put up
at about 5 minutes in he says this:
there are more laws being enacted now and they're calling it hate speech, if you tell the truth and it hurts...if you are critical of another persons religion in either writing or in word, it's against the law....
(paraphrased) we are going to have to pay a $36,000 fine for telling the truth.

this guy thinks his religious beliefs trump others (apparently a lady sitting in the pews agrees)...and not only that, this implies all sorts of hot button issues are to be controlled by those that adhere to the truth



So what are you saying? Are you taking this guys concerns about laws being enacted against the free speech of Christians and turning it around to say you think Christians want to enact laws which trump the freedoms of others? I think there is a big difference between speaking about personal beliefs and imposing one's personal beliefs upon others.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
So what are you saying? Are you taking this guys concerns about laws being enacted against the free speech of Christians and turning it around to say you think Christians want to enact laws which trump the freedoms of others? I think there is a big difference between speaking about personal beliefs and imposing one's personal beliefs upon others.

free speech of Christians? i though christians were just like everyone else...
;)
look, go ahead and preach the gospel...in your church
go ahead and pray...with those that believe as you do anywhere, as far as i'm concerned, but, if someone comes knocking on my door, or approaches me while i'm enjoying my cappuccino at starbucks and then proceeds to tell me my world view is flawed on my time...yea i'd say they believe their religious beliefs trump my personal freedom, otherwise why would they be imposing their beliefs on me? i may be wrong, but i have yet to hear about militant atheists passing out pamphlets to church goers with a heading saying all "believers of god are delusional", what would be the difference?

to add to that...
who is the biggest proponent of the defense of marriage act?
Conservative Faith Coalition Urges Congress To Defend DOMA
what about telling catholic women that birth control is an act of murder...
these are personal freedom issues that are coming to a head but also shows the moral superiority some proclaim to have because they know the truth...
 
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earlwooters

Active Member
My God, my God,why hast Thou forsaken Me. If Jesus was any part of God, he would not have said this. It's a question he would have already known the answer for.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
My God, my God,why hast Thou forsaken Me. If Jesus was any part of God, he would not have said this. It's a question he would have already known the answer for.

if you look a the account in luke, he's actually quit confident that he will be in paradise on that day, interestingly enough.
 
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