Did Jesus say he was God???

[InChrist]

:rainbow1:

just remember we are discussing ideals...
nothing is personal...well at least that would be ideal

i was raised as a born again evangelical 4 square christian until the age of 25...and thus far for 20 yrs, a non theist.

My neighbor was also raised in the Foursquare Church. He had a very difficult time growing up in that atmosphere and found it very legalistic. What was it like for you?

 

[waitasec]

My neighbor was also raised in the Foursquare Church. He had a very difficult time growing up in that atmosphere and found it very legalistic. What was it like for you?

yeah, i guess it was.
but i was also exposed to all sorts of different denominations as well...assembly of god and baptist...

what is your affiliation?

 

[waitasec]

i can care less what their so called credentials are for making such claims.

figures...

 

[InChrist]

yeah, i guess it was.
but i was also exposed to all sorts of different denominations as well...assembly of god and baptist...

what is your affiliation?

I have no affiliation other than Christ. I've visited different churches and attended 3-4 over the years, but have never joined or become a member. I have friends in various churches. For the past five years or so we just get together with friends on Sunday. Although, our backgrounds are different and we may not agree on everything we do all agree on Christ being the focus of our lives.

 

[waitasec]

I have no affiliation other than Christ. I've visited different churches and attended 3-4 over the years, but have never joined or become a member. I have friends in various churches. For the past five years or so we just get together with friends on Sunday. Although, our backgrounds are different and we may not agree on everything we do all agree on Christ being the focus of our lives.

being that christ is the main focus, what would you consider to be the biggest disagreement?

 

[anthony55]

figures...

Is that all you got ?

 

[waitasec]

Is that all you got ?

you didn't give me much to work with

 

[Shermana]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

The word "I am " means nothing more than the attribute to Jesus' statement. I am always bewildered when I am dealing with people who think every time Jesus says I am , it is the same as if I am saying I am "He who is". In fact, the actual NAME given to Moses from the Lord, is "I shall be as I shall be", or even "As I was, I shall be". The Jewish concept of the Moshiach, the Chief Angel, or "Logos" as Philo described it, makes sense in all the statements of being the "bread of Life", (as opposed to the Baker), being the truth means that he is the representative of the original Torah. Having authority doesn't mean he's THE authority.

Jesus says that the disciples in later days will be able to do works like he did, and Elisha raised from the dead, so the Omnipotence issue is taken care of.

What's up with your thing on John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, Jah", are you serious? What manuscript are you using? The context is that he existed before Abraham in the Spiritual Realm. Just like how Jeremiah existed before he was in the womb. At least you didn't use the "I am" thing.

John 10:33 should be "You make yourself to be a god" which explains his use of Psalm 82:6 in John 10;34 "Ye are gods". It's important to note that angels are referred to as "gods" as in Psalm 136:2.

As for "if you have seen me you have seen the Father", that is because he is the representative, the son, possibly even in the same image as to the one whose image we are made, but he also said "No one has seen the Father", that means if you've seen Jesus you haven't actually seen the Father, you've seen his representation, otherwise Jesus would be lying.

And for Isaiah 9:6, one of my favorite verses, the word is "Avi Ad" which means "My (yes, possessive) father of the age", the word "eternal" or "everlasting" is a bit of misnomer, it CAN mean such. And the word is "el gibbor", which means "mighty god".

The use of the word "god" in the form of El is hardly reserved for Elohim. (And if anyone wants to refer to the fact that they think Elohim is plural, its the majestic plural and still uses a singular verb.)

 

[InChrist]

being that christ is the main focus, what would you consider to be the biggest disagreement?

[FONT=&quot]Your question made me stop and think. I had a hard time trying to think of any disagreements, at least any recent ones over the last few years. The biggest disagreement occurred when someone came and tried to get us to take our focus off Christ and unto following him instead.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] In the beginning, some people came uninvited and from the start they had an agenda. The man constantly attempted to take charge as if he should lead everyone else and His wife liked to be the center of attention and appear to be very spiritual. For about a year everyone tried to be patient, show them the love of Christ, and share the truth of the scriptures while at the same time resist their manipulation and the bizarre teachings they were trying to get everyone to accept. The man was very demanding of people’s time, always wanting to have extra meetings to talk about issues and discuss the reasons he felt were preventing everyone else from trusting his spiritual insights and leading. Finally, they were told not to come back. This same kind of situation has also happening involving them in several other churches and groups.
Although it was difficult and tense, it was a valuable learning experience.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Since that time it has been very relaxed and peaceful. I’d say we all agree on the fundamental teachings of the Bible. At different times subjects like freewill, healing, how structured/informal should the group be, should there be elders or not, and others have come up but have never become an issue. Everyone seems to be able to discuss any topic even if there is some difference in perspective. We still get along keeping our focus on the love of Christ, trusting the Holy Spirit at work in each person and knowing that each person is unique and at a different place in their understanding and relationship with the Lord. [/FONT]

 

[Warren Clark]

Paul walked in the Holy Spirit and wrote as the Spirit of God directed. His style is different but the concepts give further insight into the deeper meanings of Christianity. Paul also writes that Jesus is divine saying that Jesus is the exact representation of God. He also wrote that Jesus is the creator of all things.

Just because he "wrote with the spirit of God" and he said that Jesus was devine and exact representation of God/ creator of all things, it doesn't mean he didn't right with some influence from his Jewish upbringing.

 

[anthony55]

you didn't give me much to work with

I thought you would be able to bring something to the table, I guess I was wrong, oh well.

 

[anthony55]

In post 2863 I showed where Jesus claims to be God in saying that He is the First and the Last, so who has a scripture where Jesus states " I am not God" ?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

In post 2863 I showed where Jesus claims to be God in saying that He is the First and the Last, so who has a scripture where Jesus states " I am not God" ?

Post 2863 as well as your interpertation is wrong.

In the beginning of Revelation it says..

Rev. 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

As you continue to read chapter 1 you get a clear understanding, assuming you can differentiate who is who, that Yeshua is testifying (relaying a message) on behalf of his god. The words are not from Yeshua rather they are transmitted from "God" to Yeshua then to John who has been ordered to write it.

As we read Rev. 1:8 it should be pointed out that the biblical Yeshua is still relaying his god's word to John for John to write. This isn't a description of himself. We know this because as John is writing he, at that point, didn't actually see who was talking to him but he then turns to see who was behind the voice and here's where we get a physical description of the ascended Yeshua. At this point it's like it's a break from what John was originally writing to give the reader this description.

As John sees him he falls before him. After which the ascended Yeshua commands John to keep writing and write what he has seen. The ascended Yeshua continues at this point to have John to continue to write to the churches. At 2:18 Yeshua is still relaying his god's message and John describes him as (son of God)...

Rev. 2:18
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet like fine brass;

We see here is as if John is taking dictation from Yeshua and he keeps the description of his god and his (lord) "Yeshua" separate. This is all made clear at Rev. 3:12 as well as all of chapter 4 and chapter 5.

 

[InChrist]

The most interesting and explicit verse from the supposed ascended biblical Yeshua is Rev. 3:12. That leads right into Chapters 4 and 5 where we see a clear distinction between "God" and "The Lamb" made by "God's" creatures in heaven.

[FONT=&quot]The scriptures show that Jesus, as the Son of God, consistently gives honor and submission to His Father. Also, from the perspective of His humanity He called His Father His God. Christ will always retain this humanity as a part of His Being, though now in an exalted state. I see no conflict with Him continuing to address God the Father as “My God” Nor do those who acknowledge the triune nature of God deny that within the Godhead the Persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit hold different positions. The position of the Son always esteems His Father above Himself, this in no way diminishes His own nature or essence as God.[/FONT]

Deity and divinity can be regarded as two different things. There is no information that the biblical Yeshua was a god or "God". What is mentioned is that any power Yeshua possesed was granted to him by his god. This "could" make him "a" god but since he was not the one doing the (granting) then it doesn't follow that he is "God". At best it would show he was divine but this could be said of other beings mentioned in the scriptures.

[FONT=&quot]That Jesus was God who appeared in the flesh and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His deity [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is attested to in the scriptures in many ways. He could not be a god because any other god besides the true God is always condemned as a false god. Clearly Jesus is never portrayed as a false god. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20:28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Tim. 3:16[/FONT]

This is another misconception. The prophecy in Isaiah is not about Yeshua. It was about Israel and the prohecy was told to king Ahaz and it was to be a prophecy that would unfold in the days of king Ahaz. Yeshua was never called (Immanuel/Emmanuel) nor was it a name that the angel instructed his mother to give him. Additionally the 4 gospels don't report that this title was ever bestowed on him. This was strictly the author's interpretation of the OT.

[/quote]


[FONT=&quot]As with many of the prophecies, certain aspects of this prophecy in Isaiah had application shortly after it was given during the reign of King Ahaz and at a future time which was when Christ was born and lived on earth. No, He was not called Immanuel/Emmanuel, but it was a title given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit to show the presence of God on earth with His people Israel as had been prophesied. Only God Himself could or can save His people from their sins.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” Matt. 1:21-23[/FONT]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

and if God is with us who can stand against us?

When one is 'with' another, one is not with oneself.

-Isaiah 8 vs10,8 B
Take counsel together,..., speak the word and it will not stand: for God is with us.

 

[thebigpicture]

This is the free will issue. God can just force people to be good but that means he doesn't have children, he has robots. It is much better if men will choose to be good and thereby have a wonderful relationship with their Father. It is love for us that causes God to do his utmost to encourage us to make that decision for good.

This doesn't make sense because if you believe what the bible says, the bible says that in the next world, everyone's will will be to obey god. So if he doesn't want "robots" now, why would he ever want them?

It makes sense because no-one else can save. Also a Father far off can be ignored but one close up and personal can not.

I would think that if "god" wants to be acknowledged, he doesn't need to incarnate to get someone's full attention.

 

[tumbleweed41]

... so who has a scripture where Jesus states " I am not God" ?

Mathew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Mathew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Here's one.....

Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? Jesus answered. "No one is good except God alone."

 

[anthony55]

Mathew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Uh, does that scripture has Jesus Christ stating ' I am not God" ?

 

[anthony55]

Here's one.....

Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? Jesus answered. "No one is good except God alone."

I see no where in that scripture Jesus stating,I am not God. I see where He asked the man a question " why do you call me good" and where He made a statement " No one is good except God alone" Hence I don't see Him saying that He himself was not good, and not God. Perhaps He was seeing if the man recognized Him as God, sense the man addressed Him as good master.