Did Jesus say he was God???

[Adonis65]

personally it is not an issue with me if someone holds this belief...
what i take issue is when personal belief trumps personal freedoms...
i watched that video wombat put up
at about 5 minutes in he says this:
there are more laws being enacted now and they're calling it hate speech, if you tell the truth and it hurts...if you are critical of another persons religion in either writing or in word, it's against the law....
(paraphrased) we are going to have to pay a $36,000 fine for telling the truth.

this guy thinks his religious beliefs trump others (apparently a lady sitting in the pews agrees)...and not only that, this implies all sorts of hot button issues are to be controlled by those that adhere to the truth

What happens when the general beliefs of the majority disagree with the general beliefs of everyone else? Do we defer to everyone else? Is it fair for the majority to have to sit in silence, while the minority dictates its own agenda? Some talk of compromise, but in this instance, that never works because both sides clash at almost every level. So that begs the question, which side should prevail?

 

[waitasec]

What happens when the general beliefs of the majority disagree with the general beliefs of everyone else? Do we defer to everyone else? Is it fair for the majority to have to sit in silence, while the minority dictates its own agenda? Some talk of compromise, but in this instance, that never works because both sides clash at almost every level. So that begs the question, which side should prevail?

personal freedom should prevail...
curious, where do you draw the line between personal beliefs and personal freedoms?

 

[Shermana]

Uh, does that scripture has Jesus Christ stating ' I am not God" ?

Well he's kind of saying "I don't know but my Father does".

Does he have to say "Well I'm not God, but only the Father knows"? Why does he say "The Father is Greater than I"?

And in Revelation 1:1, he's receiving a message from God so he's a separate person there as well.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I see no where in that scripture Jesus stating,I am not God.

Of course you don't even though he said...'don't call me good. God alone is good'.....

To the person he was talking to the person would not have gotten the notion that he is actually "God".

I see where He asked the man a question " why do you call me good" and where He made a statement " No one is good except God alone"

Then you need a better understanding of what you're reading.

Hence I don't see Him saying that He himself was not good, and not God. Perhaps He was seeing if the man recognized Him as God, sense the man addressed Him as good master.

You're far off the mark here. It's not that he wasn't good. At one point in your scripture he refers to himself as (good shepard) but what he's saying in Mark 10:18 is that he's not on the same level as his god. And for the record..the title of "master" is not reserved solely for "God" in your scriptures.

Maybe we're at a stalemate considering while there are no verses in your scripture where the biblical Yeshua say he's "not" "God"...there's not one single verse where he says he is.

 

[Twig pentagram]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

The Bible can only prove that people can write their ideas on paper. And with that being said, even the verses you chose to prove your point with are vague and can mean many different things.

 

[waitasec]

You're far off the mark here. It's not that he wasn't good. At one point in your scripture he is refers to himself as (good shepard) but what he's saying in Mark 10:18 is that he's not on the same level as his god. And for the record..the title of "master" is not reserved solely for "God" in your scriptures.

Maybe we're at a stalemate considering while there are no verses in your scripture where the biblical Yeshua say he's "not" "God"...there's not one single verse where he says he is.

my theory is, he couldn't say he was god, that would be the beginning of the end of his revolution as far as the jesus narrative goes.
claiming to be god would be a direct insinuation of an impending revolt against the roman empire...

 

[anthony55]

sher:

Well he's kind of saying "I don't know but my Father does".

But thats not a scripture saying He is not God.

 

[anthony55]

dp:

Then you need a better understanding of what you're reading.

No you do. If you think Jesus said in that scripture " I am not God". He never said that.

 

[Shermana]

dp:



No you do. If you think Jesus said in that scripture " I am not God". He never said that.

Does Jesus have to say "I am not Elvis!" in order for you to not assume he is not Elvis?

If Jesus says "The Father is Greater than I", and bears the Testimony of His Father in Revelation, and if Jesus differentiates himself from the Father, he doesn't have to say "I am not God" anymore than he has to say "Away from me, it is written to worship the Father alone". The closest verse that would directly say "They are the same being" would be 1 John 5:7 in the KJV but its fake.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

dp:



No you do. If you think Jesus said in that scripture " I am not God". He never said that.

And you do if you think there is a verse in your scripture where he said he is. Your scriptures show that he wasn't. This is why I said we're at a stalemate. :sad:

 

[Muffled]

The word "I am " means nothing more than the attribute to Jesus' statement. I am always bewildered when I am dealing with people who think every time Jesus says I am , it is the same as if I am saying I am "He who is". In fact, the actual NAME given to Moses from the Lord, is "I shall be as I shall be", or even "As I was, I shall be". The Jewish concept of the Moshiach, the Chief Angel, or "Logos" as Philo described it, makes sense in all the statements of being the "bread of Life", (as opposed to the Baker), being the truth means that he is the representative of the original Torah. Having authority doesn't mean he's THE authority.

Jesus says that the disciples in later days will be able to do works like he did, and Elisha raised from the dead, so the Omnipotence issue is taken care of.

What's up with your thing on John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, Jah", are you serious? What manuscript are you using? The context is that he existed before Abraham in the Spiritual Realm. Just like how Jeremiah existed before he was in the womb. At least you didn't use the "I am" thing.

John 10:33 should be "You make yourself to be a god" which explains his use of Psalm 82:6 in John 10;34 "Ye are gods". It's important to note that angels are referred to as "gods" as in Psalm 136:2.

As for "if you have seen me you have seen the Father", that is because he is the representative, the son, possibly even in the same image as to the one whose image we are made, but he also said "No one has seen the Father", that means if you've seen Jesus you haven't actually seen the Father, you've seen his representation, otherwise Jesus would be lying.

And for Isaiah 9:6, one of my favorite verses, the word is "Avi Ad" which means "My (yes, possessive) father of the age", the word "eternal" or "everlasting" is a bit of misnomer, it CAN mean such. And the word is "el gibbor", which means "mighty god".

The use of the word "god" in the form of El is hardly reserved for Elohim. (And if anyone wants to refer to the fact that they think Elohim is plural, its the majestic plural and still uses a singular verb.)

Yes. I did correct my misunderstanding in a later post after studying the Hebrew. Whether God was in the spirit or in the flesh, Jesus still used the name "I Am."

How many gods are you claiming that God acknowledges? Do you really think that He is in favor of exalting a different God? What about the first commandment?

That is exactly what Jesus says "I and My Father are one." How many fathers are called God? If He is God and The Father then He is The Everlasting "I Am."

I am not sure what your argument is here. Of course Jesus is not talking about His body as a representation of God. He is talking about The Spirit of God which resides within the body that is revealed through His words and actions. That is the only way God can be seen.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The closest verse that would directly say "They are the same being" would be 1 John 5:7 in the KJV but its fake.

Even that is not as sacred as some would have us to believe. It is thought that, that verse is an interpolation seeing as though it does not appear in earlier copies of the NT. Additionally no one was quoting that verse until a particular point in time which leads one to believe that there is validity in it being inserted at a later date.

Comma Johanneum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The Comma Johanneum is a comma (a short clause) contained in most translations of the First Epistle of John published from 1522 until the latter part of the nineteenth century, owing to the widespread use of the third edition of the Textus Receptus (TR) as the sole source for translation. In translations containing the clause, such as the King James Version, 1 John 5:7–8 reads as follows (with the Comma in bold print): 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The resulting passage is an explicit reference to the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
It does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, nor in the passage as quoted by many of the early Church Fathers. The words apparently crept into the Latin text of the New Testament during the Middle Ages, "[possibly] as one of those medieval glosses but were then written into the text itself by a careless copyist. Erasmus omitted them from his first edition; but when a storm of protest arose because the omission seemed to threaten the doctrine of the Trinity, he put them back in the third and later editions, whence they also came into the Textus Receptus, 'the received text'." Although many traditional Bible translations, most notably the Authorized King James Version (KJV), contain the insertion, modern Bible translations such as the New International Version (NIV), the New American Standard Bible (NASB), the English Standard Version (ESV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) and others tend to either omit the Comma entirely, or relegate it to the footnotes. The official Latin text of the Catholic Church (a revision of the Vulgate) also excludes it."

 

[Muffled]

and if God is with us who can stand against us?

When one is 'with' another, one is not with oneself.

-Isaiah 8 vs10,8 B
Take counsel together,..., speak the word and it will not stand: for God is with us.

Ro 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

This is Paul speaking not Jesus. The inspiration is by the Holy Spirit but the focus is on Paul and believers. Therefore there is no problem of God being with Himself. However God is literally beside Himself because of omnipresence.

 

[Muffled]

And you do if you think there is a verse in your scripture where he said he is. Your scriptures show that he wasn't. This is why I said we're at a stalemate. :sad:

No doubt repeating things you haven't proven gets stale. The question is whether you really wish to make progress or simply think that if you proliferate your unproven statemnets that people will believe them.

 

[Adonis65]

personal freedom should prevail...
curious, where do you draw the line between personal beliefs and personal freedoms?

I agree. Personal freedoms should prevail -- just not at the cost of society. Some people may believe that stealing from the rich would constitute a personal freedom. Or perhaps others might believe that running around in public with no clothes on is a personal freedom. I'm sure others would love to be able to get drunk in public, or shoot up heroin on public school grounds and call these personal freedoms. Some parents consume alcohol in front of their children, and at times, unintentionally drink to excess. Oops, now what? Does the child get smacked around at this point, or does dad doze off in a drunken stupor and leave the kids unattended?

My point is this. Personal beliefs and personal freedoms should go hand in hand. I like to use my personal beliefs to help govern my actions, and in doing so, I am able to enjoy personal freedoms in a civil society. This philosophy has kept me out of prison, and has helped me lead a very fulfilled life.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No doubt repeating things you haven't proven gets stale. The question is whether you really wish to make progress or simply think that if you proliferate your unproven statemnets that people will believe them.

Are you serious...?

How can one use the bible to prove the bible? What's at odds is not what the bible says rather the interpretations drawn by the reader.

What has been contested is your original list of assertions. They've all been dealt with...by me and even some of your fellow Christian brethren who do not agree with you. Obviously we differ on interpretation. The burden of "proof" was on you considering you made the claim...and to date you have failed at this.

 

[waitasec]

I agree. Personal freedoms should prevail -- just not at the cost of society. Some people may believe that stealing from the rich would constitute a personal freedom. Or perhaps others might believe that running around in public with no clothes on is a personal freedom. I'm sure others would love to be able to get drunk in public, or shoot up heroin on public school grounds and call these personal freedoms. Some parents consume alcohol in front of their children, and at times, unintentionally drink to excess. Oops, now what? Does the child get smacked around at this point, or does dad doze off in a drunken stupor and leave the kids unattended?

see what you are doing here is assuming everyone is a deviant...that isn't the case...not by a long shot... my personal freedoms ends where yours begins...so of course stealing, lying, killing, and adhering to double standards are all apart of over stepping the boundary...

My point is this. Personal beliefs and personal freedoms should go hand in hand.

the problem with that people will be constantly infringing one the inalienable rights of others...there needs to be a standard if not then it is anarchy.
because the human primate has learned the value of solidarity , for with out it we cannot survive, we would be no better then a bunch of chickens locked up in a pen pecking each other to death...

I like to use my personal beliefs to help govern my actions, and in doing so, I am able to enjoy personal freedoms in a civil society. This philosophy has kept me out of prison, and has helped me lead a very fulfilled life.

good for you, just so long as you do not impose these beliefs on anyone else...

 

[anthony55]

sher:

Does Jesus have to say "I am not Elvis!"

Off topic and dumb question..

 

[anthony55]

And you do if you think there is a verse in your scripture where he said he is. Your scriptures show that he wasn't. This is why I said we're at a stalemate. :sad:

It seems apparent to me that you have a difficulty understanding or discerning when a person makes a affirmative statement, or asks a probing question.:yes:

 

[waitasec]

sher:



Off topic and dumb question..

It seems apparent to me that you have a difficulty understanding or discerning when a person makes a affirmative statement, or asks a probing question.:yes:

i see you are doing the same thing over and over, you're not expecting a different result are you...?