• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did Jesus say he was God???

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Jesus never said once in this verse that He was not God !


Your statement makes no sense in lieu of the verse itself. While the ascended Yeshua didn't explicitly say he isn't "God" he did say (explicitly) that he has a god. Throughout John's scripture and Revelation we see that the biblical Yeshua maintained he was separate from his god and his god was above him, greater than him, the one who taught and informed him what he should say "before" being "sent" by his god. The biblical Yeshua ascends to heaven, not to be "God" in spirit rather he appears to John informing John he has a god. There is no reason for John to assume Yeshua is "God" so he doesn't inform the reader that is the case.
 
I find that most Christians don't understand their own scriptures. Yes, that verse is "God" speaking. We know this from its context starting at 21:5

Rev. 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

We know that ("he that sat upon the throne") refers back to Rev. 4 and 5 where the "Lamb", who Christians refer to as Jesus (Yeshua), and his god are viewed separately by "God's" heavenly creation. This is substantiated by John himself later in Rev. 21. In 4 and 5 the one on the throne is identified as "God" while the Lamb (Yeshua) was "Standing" amongst the 24 elders.

Rev. 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

John continues to inform the reader that both entities are separate.

Some KJV Bibles print this in red and some in black. Red is correct. The way to find out here who is speaking is to check the context. Revelation 21:6
says, "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

The one speaking here is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.

As you say, this is God the Father speaking, the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:8
(8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

(Again some bibles use red and some black. Red is correct as we shall see.)

Prepare to meet Jesus, the Alpha and Omega, the *** Lord God Almighty ***:

Revelation 1:11-18
(11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
(12) And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
(13) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
(14) His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
(15) And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
(16) And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


This is Jesus Christ, the God of the Bible:

Isaiah 9:6
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

It all lines up.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Yes, it is God the Father speaking, Jesus Christ. You are correct!
Very funny. As Dirty Penguin noted, both god the father and the lamb are both on the throne. Either one can be speaking. You choose to believe it is the lamb calling himself father but is completely out of line with what Jesus ever said about being a son. Jesus never made it sound like he is his own father.
 
Very funny. As Dirty Penguin noted, both god the father and the lamb are both on the throne. Either one can be speaking. You choose to believe it is the lamb calling himself father but is completely out of line with what Jesus ever said about being a son. Jesus never made it sound like he is his own father.

I don't choose anything. See my previous post where I PROVE that Jesus Christ is speaking in Rev 21:7, the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty, the one who was DEAD. This truth was established in scripture BEFORE the birth of Christ in Isaiah 9:6.

Two Gods/Beings in one throne, hmmm, God says He will not share His glory with another but He'll share His throne? This violates the most foundational principle of the Bible: God is ONE.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I don't choose anything. See my previous post where I PROVE that Jesus Christ is speaking in Rev 21:7, the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty, the one who was DEAD. This truth was established in scripture BEFORE the birth of Christ in Isaiah 9:6.

Two Gods/Beings in one throne, hmmm, God says He will not share His glory with another but He'll share His throne? This violates the most foundational principle of the Bible: God is ONE.
A verse saying who is speaking in chapter one doesn't mean thats who is speaking in chapter 21. Who is speaking had to be clarified in chapter 21 for a reason because it was God not his son.

I agree it violates the foundational principle which is why I find it strange that Jesus ASKED that god share his glory which I find to be a bit blasphemous! If Jesus was actually god he wouldn't have to ask!
 
A verse saying who is speaking in chapter one doesn't mean thats who is speaking in chapter 21. Who is speaking had to be clarified in chapter 21 for a reason because it was God not his son.

I agree it violates the foundational principle which is why I find it strange that Jesus ASKED that god share his glory which I find to be a bit blasphemous! If Jesus was actually god he wouldn't have to ask!

I think I clarified that by establishing Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, which connects the statements made by God Almighty and Jesus, the one who was dead (read it carefully). Furthermore, Jesus as a man was in submission to God, to fulfill God's purpose and plan. Jesus spoke as a man ("My father is greater than I") and He also spoke as God ("Before Abraham was I AM" & "the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins.") For both of these claims they attempted to stone Him, realizing he was claiming to be God.

God will not share His glory with ANOTHER, therefore when Jesus rec'd Glory from God, it was not another. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15), and the body in which God dwelt (Col 2:9, John 14:10); not another. Born of a woman being the Son of Man, being born of God, making Him the Son of God.
 
A verse saying who is speaking in chapter one doesn't mean thats who is speaking in chapter 21. Who is speaking had to be clarified in chapter 21 for a reason because it was God not his son.

Rev 21:6
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

So now you have God the Father which is Alpha and Omega, and the Son of God which is Alpha and Omega?

Heb 12:2
(2) Looking ***unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;*** who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus Christ, the everlasting Father He is the author and finisher of my faith.

Joh 4:14
(14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Also in Rev 21 the bible says that He will give to him that is thirsty the water of life. In Jon 4:14 Jesus gives to who is thirsty the water of life
.


I agree it violates the foundational principle which is why I find it strange that Jesus ASKED that god share his glory which I find to be a bit blasphemous! If Jesus was actually god he wouldn't have to ask!

Isa 42:8
(8) I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

2Pe 1:17
(17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Since Jesus Christ is the everlasting Father, He already had Glory. It wasn't like God the Father shared his Glory with another because Jesus Christ is the Father.
 
Last edited:

Shermana

Heretic
I think I clarified that by establishing Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, which connects the statements made by God Almighty and Jesus, the one who was dead (read it carefully). Furthermore, Jesus as a man was in submission to God, to fulfill God's purpose and plan. Jesus spoke as a man ("My father is greater than I") and He also spoke as God ("Before Abraham was I AM" & "the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins.") For both of these claims they attempted to stone Him, realizing he was claiming to be God.

God will not share His glory with ANOTHER, therefore when Jesus rec'd Glory from God, it was not another. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15), and the body in which God dwelt (Col 2:9, John 14:10); not another. Born of a woman being the Son of Man, being born of God, making Him the Son of God.

There's a defacto spurious Alpha and Omega of Jesus in verse 1:11 of many MSS including the KJV translation. These spurious additions start around the 10th century. What a coincidence none of the publicly available known copies with the last chapter of Revelation are before the 10th century that also have Jesus say "Alpha and Omega, First and the Last". You would think Athanasius would have quoted Rev 22:13 somewhere. But he didn't.

I have a thread on this on the Scripture debate board.

Again, the "I am" thing is misunderstood, Jesus was merely saying "I am". I am Shermana. Did he say it as a name? Besides, tbhe name itself is not really "I am" but "I shall be" or rather in the correct tense "I shall be as I was". The John 8:58 thing is amusing. The word "I am" or Ehyeh (Asher Ehyeh) in the Hebrew is the direct Name given, whereas Jesus is merely saying that his soul existed before Abraham.
 
Last edited:
There's a defacto spurious Alpha and Omega of Jesus in verse 1:11 of many MSS including the KJV translation. These spurious additions start around the 10th century. What a coincidence none of the publicly available known copies with the last chapter of Revelation are before the 10th century that also have Jesus say "Alpha and Omega, First and the Last". You would think Athanasius would have quoted Rev 22:13 somewhere. But he didn't.

I have a thread on this on the Scripture debate board.

Philosophy, philosophy, and more philosophy.

Col 2:8
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


Psa 12:6-7
(6) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
(7) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


Again, the "I am" thing is misunderstood, Jesus was merely saying "I am". I am Shermana. Did he say it as a name? Besides, the name itself is not really "I am" but "I shall be" or rather in the correct tense "I shall be as I was". The John 8:58 thing is amusing. The word "I am" or Ehyeh (Asher Ehyeh) in the Hebrew is the direct Name given, whereas Jesus is merely saying that his soul existed before Abraham.

First off if Jesus was saying this then why did the Jews pick up stones to throw at him? See the Jews understood more about Jesus then you do. They knew he was claiming to be God the Father.
Joh 8:58-59

(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Heb 12:2
(2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Another way of saying Jesus is the first and the last!
 
There's a defacto spurious Alpha and Omega of Jesus in verse 1:11 of many MSS including the KJV translation. These spurious additions start around the 10th century. What a coincidence none of the publicly available known copies with the last chapter of Revelation are before the 10th century that also have Jesus say "Alpha and Omega, First and the Last". You would think Athanasius would have quoted Rev 22:13 somewhere. But he didn't.

I have a thread on this on the Scripture debate board.

Again, the "I am" thing is misunderstood, Jesus was merely saying "I am". I am Shermana. Did he say it as a name? Besides, tbhe name itself is not really "I am" but "I shall be" or rather in the correct tense "I shall be as I was". The John 8:58 thing is amusing. The word "I am" or Ehyeh (Asher Ehyeh) in the Hebrew is the direct Name given, whereas Jesus is merely saying that his soul existed before Abraham.

The sinners of Jesus' day understood something you don't. For saying "I AM" , "I and my Faher are one" and for declaring the power to forgive sins they wanted to stone him.

John
10:33
(33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Sorry, your attempts to discredit the word of God cannot hide the Truth that Jesus made Himself out to be God because He was.

Jude 1:25
(25) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The sinners of Jesus' day understood something you don't. For saying "I AM" , "I and my Faher are one" and for declaring the power to forgive sins they wanted to stone him.

John
10:33
(33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Sorry, your attempts to discredit the word of God cannot hide the Truth that Jesus made Himself out to be God because He was.

Jude 1:25
(25) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The correct reading of John 10:33 should be "You being a man, makest thyself to be a god". There is no Article for "The God". This is why Jesus responds with reciting Psalms 82:6 in verse 10:34. "You are gods". John 1:1 as well should be "And a god was the word". Even The Evil one is called a god in 2 Cor 4:4. They are accusing him of declaring himself to be a god for hinting at immortality by saying "I exist even before Abraham". Read 10:36-39. Also, declaring himself to be the "Son of God" was saying he was an Angel (called "Sons of god" in Job), which are called gods (Psalm 136:2, God of the gods) and thus a god.

It is unfortunate that most translations do not add the article "a" in John 1:1 and 10:33, but that doesn't change the reference. Besides, the final accusation is that Jesus EQUATED himself with God.

As for Jude 1:25, yes, God is the Saviour, and Yashua (whose name means "God saves") is the Moshiach, which means Anointed One, it doesn't actually mean "Saviour". This little misconception doesn't help things either.
 
Last edited:

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Very funny. As Dirty Penguin noted, both god the father and the lamb are both on the throne. Either one can be speaking. You choose to believe it is the lamb calling himself father but is completely out of line with what Jesus ever said about being a son. Jesus never made it sound like he is his own father.

It's not so much as that though. When you examine Rev. chapter 4 and 5 you know instantly that "God" is seated upon the throne and the Lamb (Yeshua) is "standing" in the midst of the elders. "God" has the sealed scroll in his hand and the Lamb (Yeshua) steps forward from the crowd to take the scroll from his god. It helps to clear up the misconception that Yeshua is "God". Also remember this comes right after chapter 3 where the "ascended" Yeshua explicitly states (4 times in one verse) that he has a god.....
 

Shermana

Heretic
Philosophy, philosophy, and more philosophy.

Col 2:8
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


Psa 12:6-7
(6) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
(7) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.




First off if Jesus was saying this then why did the Jews pick up stones to throw at him? See the Jews understood more about Jesus then you do. They knew he was claiming to be God the Father.
Joh 8:58-59

(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Heb 12:2
(2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Another way of saying Jesus is the first and the last!

So your response to the issue of the spurious Alpha and Omega in verse 1:11 and the fact that no known available manuscripts with the ending are from until the time of the spurious additions you simply write off as "Philosophy",I see. You are confused, "Philosophy" is more about "What did Jesus mean", and you act as if the term "Philosophy" is automatically bad. This would be an example of what is referred to as "Textual criticism", its the same reason why Isaac Newton and Erasmus suspected something wrong with 1 John 5:7. Unless you believe the KJV of 1 John 5:7 is correct which I'd assume you probably would.

Again, as for John 8:58, they were accusing him of calling himself a god by saying he existed before Abraham. Similarly ,Jeremiah was known before the Womb.

Author and finisher of faith = The one sent to preach it to you, the one sent to perfect you.
 
Last edited:

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Again, the "I am" thing is misunderstood, Jesus was merely saying "I am". I am Shermana. Did he say it as a name? Besides, tbhe name itself is not really "I am" but "I shall be" or rather in the correct tense "I shall be as I was". The John 8:58 thing is amusing. The word "I am" or Ehyeh (Asher Ehyeh) in the Hebrew is the direct Name given, whereas Jesus is merely saying that his soul existed before Abraham.


Amazing how this is still believed that the biblical Yeshua was actually saying he is "God". I proved that this wasn't the case early on in this debate. The Greek does not agree that Yeshua is "God"
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The sinners of Jesus' day understood something you don't. For saying "I AM" , "I and my Faher are one" and for declaring the power to forgive sins they wanted to stone him.

John
10:33
(33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Sorry, your attempts to discredit the word of God cannot hide the Truth that Jesus made Himself out to be God because He was.

Jude 1:25
(25) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

And I think same fate would await Him even now in certain parts of world.

But the problem, I think is similar to how some Krishna lovers personify and localise Him, although Shri Krishna teaches 'I am the Self -- equally present in every Heart'.

Though Jesus is said to be in every Heart, most christians seem to be trying to prove that the form and name that they know is the only form-name. Ditto with many Krishna lovers.

I have not seen any reasonable explanation (from christians) as to why Jesus would say 'My father and I are same'.

How could two different entities be one?
 

Shermana

Heretic
And I think same fate would await Him even now in certain parts of world.

But the problem, I think is similar to how some Krishna lovers personify and localise Him, although Shri Krishna teaches 'I am the Self -- equally present in every Heart'.

Though Jesus is said to be in every Heart, most christians seem to be trying to prove that the form and name that they know is the only form-name. Ditto with many Krishna lovers.

I have not seen any reasonable explanation (from christians) as to why Jesus would say 'My father and I are same'.

How could two different entities be one?

Did you respond to the passage "Let them be one as we are one?"
 

Shermana

Heretic
That is more complicated. How can this and that be one?:(

"We are one" is like saying "We are united in Purpose, my actions are the Father's". That is what Yashua is saying is the Destiny for those who truly are Obedient, that they will join the "Oneness of purpose" with the Father.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
"We are one" is like saying "We are united in Purpose, my actions are the Father's". That is what Yashua is saying is the Destiny for those who truly are Obedient, that they will join the "Oneness of purpose" with the Father.

That is the problem. Where is that said? It is someone's explanation, which you have accepted. Why should someone be killed for saying that?

'May you be perfect as the Father in heaven is----' indicates that the perfection that the Father Is, is attainable and that the "I" means much more than mere purpose.
 
Top