Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

I don’t know. Why would the Syriac exclude the inspired writings of Peter and John? The Greek uses theos in both which I am convinced is correct.



See my answer above.



Yes I do believe Ephesians belongs in the inspired canon. And you are welcome to believe the whole Catholic religion if you want to. You’re even welcome to go to confession and confess your sins to a priest if you believe they have that authority. Show me where the disciples said, “Your sins are forgiven thee.” And answer if you can, why Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” when He Himself had the power to forgive them.



Matthew 1:21
(21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Yah is the only savior allowed by God (Hos 13:4, Is 43:11) There can be *** NO *** other saviors. He (Yah Savior) will save HIS people from their sins.

If you believe that Jesus is NOT GOD, then your savior is an imposter. Whereas I believe the Bible, that there is NO savior besides God. Therefore, as God will save His people from their sins, and since He is the only one doing the saving, Yah is Saviour. How do you arrive at “Yah saves” when Yah is not saving, but rather watching someone save who is not allowed to save?



You may be Henotheistic but David certainly was not. David was monotheistic like myself. The fact that you are Henotheistic certainly opens the door to that possibility (apealing to the gods.) A monotheistic like myself would never be suspect as such. JW's (who are into this "gods" stuff) used to worship Jesus, until they changed their position. I don't think they know what their relationship to the G/gods is.

If David wasn't Henotheistic, why did he write "God of the gods"? You can ignore everything I say if you think that's a way to counter my argument.

Also, as far as the Moshiach being "the Saviour", again this is a distortion of the word "Moshiach".

I will bet $100 via paypal that Yashua means "Yah saves".

If you believe Ephesians is inspired canon, that's nice, but most scholars don't. You can justify your belief on the Roman canon on pure faith, but it doesn't fly in the scholarship.

The Syriac is very telling of how to use the word Theos, (which strong's says can be "a god") in its place.

Without the article Ton Theon, it is no longer THE God, but "a god". Are you aware of the fact that almost all of the time "God" is referred to there is an article? Gramatically, it should say "A god was the word". If you don't believe it, it's all you.

Where is Jesus ever called the Saviour? It says he will save people from their sins, what does that mean, compared to the original use of the word "Saviour" in the scripture? (i.e. saviour as in one who delivers Israel out of physical danger). Why was Joshua named Joshua?

Also, it seems you're denying the fact that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to the disciples, is this the case?

 

[Shermana]

Not just any human, but the flesh in which God the Father dwelt, and there isn't even any controversy about it:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: *** God was manifest in the flesh ***, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(1 Timothy 3:16)

To wit, that *** God was in Christ ***, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(2 Corinthians 5:19)

Which God was in Christ? Let's ask Jesus.

*** but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. ***.
(John 14:10b)

And since you bring up Isaiah, let's ask him too:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The *** mighty God, The everlasting Father ***, The Prince of Peace.
(Isaiah 9:6)

The body is the tabernacle and the image of God.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(Colossians 2:9-10)

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
(Colossians 1:15-19)

I also asked earlier to someone, might have been you, why your translation uses THE mighty God, there is no Hebrew article for "The" there, it is simply "El gibbor" which means "Mighty god" in lower case. As well, "The everlasting Father" is an issue, the word "Ad" is like the Greek "Aeon" it can and usually does mean "An age/period of time" as opposed to "eternal". Also, something few translations take into account is that the word is "Avi" which is the possessive form of Father, so it is a posessive, "Father of the age".

Now as for Rev 21:7, why don't you show the passage which shows you who is talking to John for context sake. Verse 5

He who was seated on the throne said,

Jesus does not sit on the throne, he sits at the right hand. Show a verse in revelations that confirms that Jesus sits on the throne as well as the Father.

Please note your own translation for Colossians 1:15 "The Firstborn of every creature", (should be "Of all creation)" it doesn't mean "Ruler" it means "First of". The concept of the Logos as the First Creation of God is exactly what I was referring to with Philo in another thread.

And the word "Godhead" in Colossians 2:9 means "Divinity" in the sense of "godhood" in the lower case. The word "Godhead" in Olde English used to mean "Godhood", not an entity made up of 3 parts.

 

[ApostolicPeter]

If David wasn't Henotheistic, why did he write "God of the gods"? You can ignore everything I say if you think that's a way to counter my argument.

You did a great job of avoiding and dodging my points and questions. Is that how you debate?

Sorry, David definitely was not henotheistic. He did not believe in living, breathing gods as you do. Who are the gods of David’s writings?

For *** all *** the gods of the nations are *** idols: *** but the LORD made the heavens.
(Psalms 96:5)

Confounded be all they that serve *** graven images ***, that boast themselves of *** idols ***: worship him, all ye *** gods ***.
(Psalms 97:7)

They are IDOLS, GRAVEN IMAGES. Not people, messengers or saviours of Yahweh. David mockingly commands these images of stone and wood to worship Yahweh! Any reference in scripture referring to humans as gods takes on the same pathetic implications. They are all but dung in the eyes of Yahweh:

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. *** But ye shall die like men ***, and fall like one of the princes.
(Psalms 82:6-7)

Obviously, Yahweh’s and David's gods are not really gods at all, are they? But yours live and breathe and even save.

Also, as far as the Moshiach being "the Saviour", again this is a distortion of the word "Moshiach".

I will bet $100 via paypal that Yashua means "Yah saves".

If you believe Ephesians is inspired canon, that's nice, but most scholars don't. You can justify your belief on the Roman canon on pure faith, but it doesn't fly in the scholarship.

And yet you embrace the Catholic Apocrypha??? You can have it, I'll take Ephesians, an awesome book written by Paul. As a Holy Ghost filled believer, I have no doubt of it's divine inspiration.

The Syriac is very telling of how to use the word Theos, (which strong's says can be "a god") in its place.

Without the article Ton Theon, it is no longer THE God, but "a god". Are you aware of the fact that almost all of the time "God" is referred to there is an article? Gramatically, it should say "A god was the word". If you don't believe it, it's all you.

Where is Jesus ever called the Saviour? It says he will save people from their sins, what does that mean, compared to the original use of the word "Saviour" in the scripture? (i.e. saviour as in one who delivers Israel out of physical danger). Why was Joshua named Joshua?

Actually there are many “saviours” in the Bible, so when God says He alone is Saviour, He is not talking about basic help for the flesh. Rather, He is referring to when He will come in the flesh as the Lamb of God to suffer and die for our sins, and thus being the true Savior. Of course that was fulfilled in Jesus and declared throughout the NT.

Joshua was a type of Christ and led his people into the promised land. But there is a huge difference between Joshua and Yeshua: Yeshua was God manifest in the flesh. Joshua was not.

Also, it seems you're denying the fact that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to the disciples, is this the case?

I don’t deny what Jesus said. I asked you to show me the disciples forgiving sins. Since you completely avoided doing so, I’ll assume you are not able. I will also assume your interpretation thereof is not Biblical.

 

[Shermana]

You say I dodged and ignored your points, while you ignore Psalm 136:2, fascinating. Please show what points you feel I dodged. The "God is in Christ" thing? That's Jesus serving as a Temple. It does not mean He is God. In fact, it shows the separation, that God dwells in the Human Temple he chose. Why do you suppose Jesus said "Let them be one as we are one", so others can become Living Temples too.

There is a difference between the idol gods of the nations and the "gods" who are the angels. You can ignore Psalm 136:2 all you like but that won't make it go away.

King James Bible
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.


You totally ignored the 2 Cor 4:4 thing. Who is "The god of this world?"

Interesting you think the Apocrypha is solely Catholic, you must have not heard of the Dead Sea SCrolls. The Talmud quotes Sirach as "Scripture". The Jews did not abandon it until the dark ages.

You apparently don't understand why Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10;34. I don't think you even understand what Psalm 82:6 means why it says "You shall die like men". Why don't you try reading Psalm 82 in its full context, he is talking to the Israelites, calling them gods. Just like how Jesus called the Israelites gods. In fact, verse 82:1 is interesting, even though its not the subject matter:

1God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the gods:


There is no passage whatsoever in the Bible that specifically that God will be manifest in the flesh, not even Isaiah 9:6.

The fact that you call yourself a "Holy Ghost filled believer" when you lay your claim as if that validates Ephesians as authentic puts you in danger of blaspheming the Spirit by attributing something to it which is not. In fact, I will even claim you are NOT filled with the Holy Spirit. One of us is lying about the Holy Spirit and I'm willing to make that risk to call you out on it.

Also, it seems you are claiming that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins, but because it doesn't show examples of them doing so, that they didn't. Nice. However, I do believe the ending of John is a bit dubious, so if you don't believe this part happened I don't blame you.

‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’

 

[atanu]

My view:

God is unborn and beyond seeing or hearing.

It is the Word, which is the intention of God that embodies and that only we see and know.

But the essence of the Word is God alone. Difference between us and the emodied Word is that in former case the illusionary ego speaks and argues. No such illusion is present in the pure-untainted Word, which is the first born and in which the creation rests.

For all practical purposes (practical for our mind-senses), the Word is God. So, it is said "I am the way".

 

[AcidPancake]

I wont be reading all 305 pages of this hot-button issue, but I would like to say, Jesus was divine, because we all are. We all have it within us to be both God and Human.

 

[ApostolicPeter]

I also asked earlier to someone, might have been you, why your translation uses THE mighty God, there is no Hebrew article for "The" there, it is simply "El gibbor" which means "Mighty god" in lower case. As well, "The everlasting Father" is an issue, the word "Ad" is like the Greek "Aeon" it can and usually does mean "An age/period of time" as opposed to "eternal". Also, something few translations take into account is that the word is "Avi" which is the possessive form of Father, so it is a posessive, "Father of the age". .

As I explained in my previous posts, that God knows no gods, and certainly has no respect for them. God alone is Saviour. To call the son born unto us Mighty God (or god if that’s what you prefer), is strong language for someone who rejects all gods. But Isaiah goes further. Calling Him ad awb, or everlasting (or age if that’s what you prefer) Father. So Jesus is going to be Mighty G/god AND everlasting/age Father. In context of the whole book, The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father was born the Son, the Lamb of God. And Isaiah 9:6 was correctly interpreted as it is in the KJV.

Now as for Rev 21:7, why don't you show the passage which shows you who is talking to John for context sake. Verse 5 .

I’m so glad you asked. I will give you context, and then you will deny the context and the truth. Ignore the red letters if you want. The content speaks for itself in any color.

In v5, the one speaking sat upon the throne; You said this is God; I agree this is God.
You didn’t ask for v6, but I will give it to you anyway. The one speaking is also Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Where else in Revelation does someone identify themselves by these titles? Several places, but for starters, 22:13.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Rev. 22:13

Now we have just established that this Alpha & Omega/Beginning & End is also the 'first and the last'. As your about to see this is *** JESUS ***. And I will also show you this is *** YAHWEH. ***

First, here is Jesus:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, *** I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: *** and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 *** And I turned to see the voice that spake with me ***. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks *** one like unto the Son of man ***, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, *** I fell at his feet as dead ***. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; *** I am the first and the last: ***
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, *** AND WAS DEAD ***; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The first & the last (which is also the Alpha & Omega/Beginning & End) was *** DEAD *** and is now alive forevermore. When was Yahweh DEAD??? He wasn't, this is JESUS. This is the one speaking in Rev 21:5-7.

Next, we see Jesus again, *** the one coming: ***

Rev 22:12 *** And, behold, I come quickly ***; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 *** I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. ***

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, *** Surely I come quickly ***. Amen. Even so, *** come, Lord Jesus ***.

And we cannot ignore c1v8:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)


Yes, the one coming is *** Jesus ***. He is Alpha and Omega, the ALMIGHTY, *** the one who is speaking in Rev 21:5-7. ***

Now let’s see Rev 21:5-7 again and especially v7.

Rev 21:5 *** And he that sat upon the throne said ***, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. *** I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end ***. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; *** and I will be his God, and he shall be my son ***.


JESUS is the one speaking in Rev 21:7. He claims to be GOD. We are his sons, because He is our Father, just like Isaiah said. JESUS is the *** one sitting on the throne. ***
And just as as YOU said the one speaking in Rev 21:5-7 is GOD. Yes, your are correct, it is. It is JESUS CHRIST. I just demonstrated sound interpretation of the Word of God. Line upon line. Beautiful isn't it? Furthermore, the God of the entire Bible is Jesus Christ.

Now you have 3 choices (1) Accept that Jesus Christ is God seated upon His throne and you and your religion are in error (2) Deny the absolute Word of God or (3) Reject sound interpretation and make up some nonsense like there are multiple "Alpha & Omegas". Which one is it Shermana?


Now we will see Yahweh:

Isa_41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa_48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

There cannot be TWO first & lasts. Jesus is the First & Last. Yahweh is the first and last. They are the same GOD.

Jesus does not sit on the throne, he sits at the right hand. Show a verse in revelations that confirms that Jesus sits on the throne as well as the Father.

I just did.

Please note your own translation for Colossians 1:15 "The Firstborn of every creature", (should be "Of all creation)" it doesn't mean "Ruler" it means "First of". The concept of the Logos as the First Creation of God is exactly what I was referring to with Philo in another thread.

Col 2:10 says he is the head of ALL principality and power.

And the word "Godhead" in Colossians 2:9 means "Divinity" in the sense of "godhood" in the lower case. The word "Godhead" in Olde English used to mean "Godhood", not an entity made up of 3 parts.

In the body of Jesus was ALL THE FULLNESS OF DIETY – GOD THE FATHER. Jn 14:10

It might help you to understand I don’t believe in a pagan trinity. I also am monotheistic. Just one God: Jesus Christ.

 

[ApostolicPeter]

You say I dodged and ignored your points, while you ignore Psalm 136:2, fascinating. Please show what points you feel I dodged. The "God is in Christ" thing? That's Jesus serving as a Temple. It does not mean He is God. In fact, it shows the separation, that God dwells in the Human Temple he chose. Why do you suppose Jesus said "Let them be one as we are one", so others can become Living Temples too.

There is a difference between the idol gods of the nations and the "gods" who are the angels. You can ignore Psalm 136:2 all you like but that won't make it go away.

LOL, This is your proof verse??? I checked 13 different translations and none of them say anything about "angels".

kingjbible.com/psalms/136.htm"]King James Bible
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.


You totally ignored the 2 Cor 4:4 thing. Who is "The god of this world?"

You must have missed it, I clearly stated ALL gods are but dung in the eyes of God, yes, including the god of this world. They are not God's saviour, messenger, apostles or Jews.

Interesting you think the Apocrypha is solely Catholic, you must have not heard of the Dead Sea SCrolls. The Talmud quotes Sirach as "Scripture". The Jews did not abandon it until the dark ages.

I could give you a lesson on KJV, but that is another thread. I don't have time here. The message of the gospel is not faith in your myriad of books and vast knowlege of languages, versions, etc. It is faith in Jesus Christ. The BIBLICAL JESUS, not some human scapegoat.

You apparently don't understand why Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10;34. I don't think you even understand what Psalm 82:6 means why it says "You shall die like men". Why don't you try reading Psalm 82 in its full context, he is talking to the Israelites, calling them gods. Just like how Jesus called the Israelites gods. In fact, verse 82:1 is interesting, even though its not the subject matter:

bible.cc/psalms/82-1.htm"]1God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the gods:

You just don't get it. Again you are so wrapped up in the meaning of words you cannot understand context. In this case the context of the whole Bible. MAN makes gods, not God -- with the exception of Satan who made himself a god. But they are NOT gods or deities in God's eyes. When God speaks of them, He is acknowledging they exist in in the minds of those who created them, but God does not respect them. To God they are NOT gods.

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, *** and thou shalt know no god but me ***: for there is no saviour beside me. (Hosea 13:4)


There is no passage whatsoever in the Bible that specifically that God will be manifest in the flesh, not even Isaiah 9:6.

wrong, 1tim3:16. Did you even read my post?

The fact that you call yourself a "Holy Ghost filled believer" when you lay your claim as if that validates Ephesians as authentic puts you in danger of blaspheming the Spirit by attributing something to it which is not. In fact, I will even claim you are NOT filled with the Holy Spirit. One of us is lying about the Holy Spirit and I'm willing to make that risk to call you out on it.

LOL, based on what you believe, I don't think you're qualified. You don't even know WHO the Holy Ghost is. No He's not person #3 or some mysterious "energy force." And Jesus is not Yahweh's human scapegoat. FYI, I received the HG just like they did in the book of Acts. Did you?


Also, it seems you are claiming that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins, but because it doesn't show examples of them doing so, that they didn't. Nice. However, I do believe the ending of John is a bit dubious, so if you don't believe this part happened I don't blame you.

Here you go with your word meanings again while ignoring the context of the book. The reason you can't find examples is because you have the wrong interpretaion. There are plenty of examples, study to show thyself approved.

----------

 

[Dirty Penguin]

That makes sense but at some point the lamb I thought joins god on the throne. As chapter 22 says "the throne of god and of the lamb" so there is some ambiguity there. You are absolutely correct that the whole book keeps them seperate as I additionally noted with the throne. That would exactly mean that if it says "i am god" then it isn't the lamb speaking.

Exactly. This is where Mark 14:62 comes in. We also see the biblical Yeshua being reference to standing or sitting at the right hand of his god in the book of Acts, Romans, Colossians, Hebrews, and 1st Peter. These followers all believed Yeshua was next to his god but not "God". Check out what their book of Hebrews says....

Hebrews 8:1
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The "a god"translation is in an 1824 translation, as well as various others besides the JW. The Syriac uses the word "Eloah"for "a god was the word", and "Elohim"for when it says "And the word was with God". Why would it use "Eloah" in the singular?

Agreed. John 1:1 makes me think of a verse in Hebrews that says.....


Hebrews 8:10
ὅτι αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι τῷ οἴκῳ Ἰσραὴλ μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας, λέγει κύριος· διδοὺς νόμους μου εἰς τὴν διάνοιαν αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν ἐπιγράψω αὐτοὺς, καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτοῖς εἰς θεὸν, καὶ αὐτοι ἔσονται μοι εἰς λαόν·

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a god, and they shall be to me a people:

 

[ApostolicPeter]

Exactly. This is where Mark 14:62 comes in. We also see the biblical Yeshua being reference to standing or sitting at the right hand of his god in the book of Acts, Romans, Colossians, Hebrews, and 1st Peter. These followers all believed Yeshua was next to his god but not "God". Check out what their book of Hebrews says....

Hebrews 8:1
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Does God have hands???? Jn 4:24

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Does God have hands???? Jn 4:24

Such a question is of no concern to me. I'm only reporting what your scriptures say. From a theological perspective one can view them as spiritual hands. Your scriptures say "right hand".

Example:

Rev 5:1
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

We know this is not referring to Yeshua ("The Lamb") as he is still "standing" amongst the elders.

Rev 5:6 (in part)
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain............

What does Yeshua ("The Lamb") do at this point?

Rev 5:7
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Physical or spiritual hands at this point is not important. What's important is the fact that "God" is seated on the throne and Yeshua is standing amongst the elders. This is what your scriptures say.

 

[ApostolicPeter]

Such a question is of no concern to me. I'm only reporting what your scriptures say. From a theological perspective one can view them as spiritual hands. Your scriptures say "right hand".

Example:

Rev 5:1
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

We know this is not referring to Yeshua ("The Lamb") as he is still "standing" amongst the elders.

Rev 5:6 (in part)
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain............

What does Yeshua ("The Lamb") do at this point?

Rev 5:7
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Physical or spiritual hands at this point is not important. What's important is the fact that "God" is seated on the throne and Yeshua is standing amongst the elders. This is what your scriptures say.

I did not mean to be sarcastic and I apologize if it came across that way. The reason I asked if God has hands is because the obvious answer is that He does not. The entire book of revelation is full of symbols. The "Right hand of God" symbolizes power, and this is why Jesus Christ is always at "God's right hand." Jesus is the Head of ALL principality and power (col 2.10)

Now to address the issue of the Lamb and the throne. There is one throne in heaven and God AND the Lamb are in it. Rev 22:1, 22:3. When John tells us who is in the throne, He doesn't say "THEY," he says HE.

And *** he ***that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Revelation 21:5)

John understood that God and the Lamb are one and the same. And to be true to the context of the book, how can the omnipresent God be contained in a throne?

When we see Jesus taking the scroll, the Bible tells us He was worthy because he was slain. There are not two beings here. This is a beautiful symbol of the lamb that was slain -- THE MAN CHRIST JESUS -- being the only one worthy to fulfill the plan of God.

When we get to heaven, we will not see God and Jesus as two. God is invisible and omnipresent. But Jesus is the image of the invisible God and IN HIM dwells all the fullness of God. We will see the lamb seated on the throne.

 

[Shermana]

----------

So what does Psalm 136:2 mean. And Psalm 86:1.

You are the one who "just doesn't get it".

Its quite simple, angels are called "gods" as well as "sons of god". You can avoid discussing the specifics of Psam 136:2 "God of the gods" all you want. The "idol gods" are far different, they are truly false gods. Angels are indeed called "gods". I suggest you look up the definition of the word "god" in Hebrew and its origin.

Henotheism is the truest form of Monotheism. Angels are not referred to as "Angels" as a species or even as a being, but as a class. The title for them is "gods", the class/purpose of them is as "Messenger" but the idea of associating the word "Angel" as a winged being with a halo is modern. The word "Evangelos" means "Messenger". Whenever it uses the word "Angel" it is referring to a "messenger from God", but what kind of being is this? According to Psalm 136:2, which you basically deny, it says they are called "gods". Lower case g gods. They are not as powerful as the Creator, they are His creation.

 

[Shermana]

As I explained in my previous posts, that God knows no gods, and certainly has no respect for them. God alone is Saviour. To call the son born unto us Mighty God (or god if that’s what you prefer), is strong language for someone who rejects all gods. But Isaiah goes further. Calling Him ad awb, or everlasting (or age if that’s what you prefer) Father. So Jesus is going to be Mighty G/god AND everlasting/age Father. In context of the whole book, The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father was born the Son, the Lamb of God. And Isaiah 9:6 was correctly interpreted as it is in the KJV.




I’m so glad you asked. I will give you context, and then you will deny the context and the truth. Ignore the red letters if you want. The content speaks for itself in any color.

In v5, the one speaking sat upon the throne; You said this is God; I agree this is God.
You didn’t ask for v6, but I will give it to you anyway. The one speaking is also Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Where else in Revelation does someone identify themselves by these titles? Several places, but for starters, 22:13.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Rev. 22:13

Now we have just established that this Alpha & Omega/Beginning & End is also the 'first and the last'. As your about to see this is *** JESUS ***. And I will also show you this is *** YAHWEH. ***

First, here is Jesus:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, *** I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: *** and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 *** And I turned to see the voice that spake with me ***. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks *** one like unto the Son of man ***, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, *** I fell at his feet as dead ***. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; *** I am the first and the last: ***
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, *** AND WAS DEAD ***; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The first & the last (which is also the Alpha & Omega/Beginning & End) was *** DEAD *** and is now alive forevermore. When was Yahweh DEAD??? He wasn't, this is JESUS. This is the one speaking in Rev 21:5-7.

Next, we see Jesus again, *** the one coming: ***

Rev 22:12 *** And, behold, I come quickly ***; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 *** I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. ***

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, *** Surely I come quickly ***. Amen. Even so, *** come, Lord Jesus ***.

And we cannot ignore c1v8:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)


Yes, the one coming is *** Jesus ***. He is Alpha and Omega, the ALMIGHTY, *** the one who is speaking in Rev 21:5-7. ***

Now let’s see Rev 21:5-7 again and especially v7.

Rev 21:5 *** And he that sat upon the throne said ***, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. *** I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end ***. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; *** and I will be his God, and he shall be my son ***.


JESUS is the one speaking in Rev 21:7. He claims to be GOD. We are his sons, because He is our Father, just like Isaiah said. JESUS is the *** one sitting on the throne. ***
And just as as YOU said the one speaking in Rev 21:5-7 is GOD. Yes, your are correct, it is. It is JESUS CHRIST. I just demonstrated sound interpretation of the Word of God. Line upon line. Beautiful isn't it? Furthermore, the God of the entire Bible is Jesus Christ.

Now you have 3 choices (1) Accept that Jesus Christ is God seated upon His throne and you and your religion are in error (2) Deny the absolute Word of God or (3) Reject sound interpretation and make up some nonsense like there are multiple "Alpha & Omegas". Which one is it Shermana?


Now we will see Yahweh:

Isa_41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa_48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

There cannot be TWO first & lasts. Jesus is the First & Last. Yahweh is the first and last. They are the same GOD.




I just did.



Col 2:10 says he is the head of ALL principality and power.



In the body of Jesus was ALL THE FULLNESS OF DIETY – GOD THE FATHER. Jn 14:10

It might help you to understand I don’t believe in a pagan trinity. I also am monotheistic. Just one God: Jesus Christ.

You completely ignored what I said about Revelation 22:13 and brushed it off as "Philosophy". In addition, one can see that it's not Yashua who is speaking at that point but God, and then Yashua concludes the message as a message from Him from God.

The fullness of Deity = Divinity = The fullness of godhood. Does not mean he is "God". What is the word "Divinity" and what does the word "God" mean, do you even know? The word "Deity" in the sense is not of an entity but of a quality.

Revelation 21:7 is clearly the Throne speaking. You cannot preassume it is Jesus and say "Therefore it is Jesus talking". The lamb is not seated on the throne. Your thing about "John knew that the one on the throne and the lamb are the same" is a great example of Trinitarian logic. How exactly do you derive that conclusion from the text? Dirty Penguin more than adequately described how one holds the book on the throne while the other stands. Your idea they are one and the same is pretty much Polytheism.

I seriously love the fact you completely ignored what I said about Revelation 1:11 having a spurious Alpha and Omega. You're right, we most certainly can't ignore verse 1:8, and that's why the Trintiarians went out of their way to try to add an extra Alpha and Omega to verse 1:11 and possibly even 22:13 but that's debatable especially since it's not Yahsua speaking at that point. To try to say that Yashua calls himself the Alpha and Omega relies on interpolations and extreme twisting the text such as believing that "John knew they the one on the throne and the lamb were one and the same". Just because it says "I Yashua am coming" 7 verses later doesn't mean the Father wasn't the one speaking in 22:13, anymore than it means John was the one speaking it when he says "I John say these things".

I'm assuming you are a King-James onlyist, are you aware that none of the early manuscripts have that Alpha and Omega until the 10th century (coincidentally the same time frame any available copies of the last chapter are from).. When you say "Isaiah 9:6 was translated correctly in the KJV" after I point out that there is no article and that the word is "El" as in 'god", you can believe that, but the facts state otherwise.

Col 2:9-10 about him having principality and power over all nations, guess what, that's exactly what the idea is for the Jewish Moshiach, a human leader of the world invested with full power by the Father.

 

[Shermana]

It's the same light.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(John 1:9)

Because it's the same God.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
(John 1:10-11)

A lamp is not a light anymore than a light bulb. God is the electricity and Yashua is the lightbulb.

 

[Shermana]

Some interesting translations of John 8:58

(Exhibit A) 1869:
"From before Abraham was, I have been."
The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

(Exhibit B) 1935:
"I existed before Abraham was born!"
The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

(Exhibit C) 1965:
"Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am."
Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.

(Exhibit D) 1981:
"I was alive before Abraham was born!"
The Simple English Bible.

(Exhibit E) 1984:
"Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Now interestingly, the same word used for "Abraham was" is used for "Come to be" later on. The context changes the use of the "I am". Similarly in languages like French, some verbs used "I am" for past tense as well as future.

Matthew 20:26 uses the word for "was" for "Shall be". Just like how Eyheh Asher Ehyeh in Hebrew means "I shall be who/as I was". So when Jesus says "I am", it was a "present-past" tense, and simply saying "I lived before Abraham comes into being". Shall we read it as "I lived before Abraham shall be?" No. Obviously the tense is past. But in the case of Matthew 20:26, its future tense. What's going on here? Obviously, the word for present can be past and future, so Jesus was not saying he was the Name, he was simply keeping in grammatical agreement of "Before Abraham was, I was".

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Some interesting translations of John 8:58
Now interestingly, the same word used for "Abraham was" is used for "Come to be" later on. The context changes the use of the "I am". Similarly in languages like French, some verbs used "I am" for past tense as well as future.
Matthew 20:26 uses the word for "was" for "Shall be". Just like how Eyheh Asher Ehyeh in Hebrew means "I shall be who/as I was". So when Jesus says "I am", it was a "present-past" tense, and simply saying "I lived before Abraham comes into being". Shall we read it as "I lived before Abraham shall be?" No. Obviously the tense is past. But in the case of Matthew 20:26, its future tense. What's going on here? Obviously, the word for present can be past and future, so Jesus was not saying he was the Name, he was simply keeping in grammatical agreement of "Before Abraham was, I was".

I enjoyed your ^above^ post.

Since Jesus is 'firstborn' in the heavens before all other creation, then yes before Abraham Jesus was in existence. Existence in the heavenly realm before God sent Jesus to earth to be born as a human.
- Col 1v15; Psalm 89v27; Rev 3v14 B

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I did not mean to be sarcastic and I apologize if it came across that way. The reason I asked if God has hands is because the obvious answer is that He does not. The entire book of revelation is full of symbols. The "Right hand of God" symbolizes power, and this is why Jesus Christ is always at "God's right hand." Jesus is the Head of ALL principality and power (col 2.10)

Right. In most cases (right hand) can be a symbol of position of power (e.g. "my right hand man"). John in Revelation is describing something different.

Now to address the issue of the Lamb and the throne. There is one throne in heaven and God AND the Lamb are in it. Rev 22:1, 22:3. When John tells us who is in the throne, He doesn't say "THEY," he says HE.

I didn't see ("he") in those verses. At any rate it would help if people had a little understanding of the Greek being used because the mistake made so often is the assumption that only one throne is being mentioned and it's not. Not only does "God" have a throne but the elders sit upon a throne as well. The only one without a throne is "The Lamb" (Yeshua). He is (standing) amongst the elders.

Rev 4:4

καὶ κυκλόθεν τοῦ θρόνου θρόνοι εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρας πρεσβυτέρους καθημένους περιβεβλημένους ἱματίοις λευκοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς κεφαλὰς αὐτῶν στεφάνους χρυσοῦς.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And *** he ***that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Revelation 21:5)

John understood that God and the Lamb are one and the same. And to be true to the context of the book, how can the omnipresent God be contained in a throne?

Actually he understood them to be separate. Why would the lamb have to step forward from standing in the midst of the 24 elders who were seated upon their own thrones to take the scroll from the hand of his god if he is "God"? As far as "God" being contained on a throne...once again, I'm only stating what your scriptures are saying and how it is to be understood in Greek context and not so much in English context. Your contention is that Yeshua, while on Earth, was "God" so the same question you yourself must answer....("How can God be contained in a human body?"). To me the question is unimportant. What is important is that Yeshua, from what John actually saw and wrote, was "STANDING" amongst the elders who were seated upon their own thrones at the same time "God" was seated upon his throne with the scroll in his possession. Yeshua, steps forward to retrieve it from his god. John understood them to be separate. The conjunction (kai) informs us of such.

 

[ApostolicPeter]

Right. In most cases (right hand) can be a symbol of position of power (e.g. "my right hand man"). John in Revelation is describing something different.

Chapter and verse please.


I didn't see ("he") in those verses. At any rate it would help if people had a little understanding of the Greek being used because the mistake made so often is the assumption that only one throne is being mentioned and it's not. Not only does "God" have a throne but the elders sit upon a throne as well. The only one without a throne is "The Lamb" (Yeshua). He is (standing) amongst the elders.

More symbolism. Too many people take Revelation literal, but almost everything is symbolism.

Rev 4:4

καὶ κυκλόθεν τοῦ θρόνου θρόνοι εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρας πρεσβυτέρους καθημένους περιβεβλημένους ἱματίοις λευκοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς κεφαλὰς αὐτῶν στεφάνους χρυσοῦς.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.




Actually he understood them to be separate. Why would the lamb have to step forward from standing in the midst of the 24 elders who were seated upon their own thrones to take the scroll from the hand of his god if he is "God"? As far as "God" being contained on a throne...once again, I'm only stating what your scriptures are saying and how it is to be understood in Greek context and not so much in English context. Your contention is that Yeshua, while on Earth, was "God" so the same question you yourself must answer....("How can God be contained in a human body?"). To me the question is unimportant. What is important is that Yeshua, from what John actually saw and wrote, was "STANDING" amongst the elders who were seated upon their own thrones at the same time "God" was seated upon his throne with the scroll in his possession. Yeshua, steps forward to retrieve it from his god. John understood them to be separate. The conjunction (kai) informs us of such.

"Kai" doesn't prove separate beings. If that were the case God and the Father are also two separate beings. Below is just one of four occurrences "God and the Father."

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and (kai) the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.