javajo
Well-Known Member
I see. I believe he is both God and Messiah.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
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Shermana
Heretic
Do you know what "Messiah" actually means? If you believe that he was G-d, then you believe in something other than the intended idea.
His claim was to be before Abraham. That is not being equal to god. They got offended because Abraham is the patriarch. Jesus may have insinuated that he knew Abraham and said point blank that he is before him. Not two sentences before he said he can't glorify himself but that God glorifies him (which wasn't what got them to pick up stones).
javajo
Well-Known Member
I dunno. He didn't rebuke Thomas when he called him his God nor did he rebuke people for worshiping him as the angel in Revelation did, telling John to worship God only. The New Testament writers make it clear that Jesus is God. That is what I believe, he is God our Saviour.
Shermana
Heretic
Most scholars believe John's ending saw a few "add ons" (especially Chapter 21), and John 20:28 is most likely a latter interpolation, and John likely originally ended at 20:10. There is not much scholarship on this issue yet but historical-Jesus.info shows valid arguments. It clashes with the endings of Matthew and Luke, and Tatian discluded it from the Diatesseron. It also implies Thomas was not present to receive the Spirit.
Do you believe that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to his disciples? Wouldn't that undermine part of your logic of what makes Jesus "Equal" to G-d f he did?
The Angel rebuked John from worshiping him because he was a fellow prophet, they were of Similar "rank". However, worshiping a fallen angel would not be in the chain of command and thus not "serving". David is worshiped. Samuel's ghost is worshiped by Saul.
Do you believe that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to his disciples? Wouldn't that undermine part of your logic of what makes Jesus "Equal" to G-d f he did?
The Angel rebuked John from worshiping him because he was a fellow prophet, they were of Similar "rank". However, worshiping a fallen angel would not be in the chain of command and thus not "serving". David is worshiped. Samuel's ghost is worshiped by Saul.
javajo
Well-Known Member
The first lie, "Yea, hath God said?" I believe the Bible I have is the Word of God.
No, they forgave sins in the name of Jesus Christ, not their own name.
He said to worship God.
Saul was wrong. We are only to worship God and no other. Anyway, I believe Jesus is God and David did, too.
Shermana
Heretic
Lie? You have a right to your belief, and I have a right to believe in the facts and evidence.
If they forgave in anyone's name, that's still the power to forgive. Does it not say he gave the power to forgive, regardless whether in his name or not?
You are to worship G-d and SERVE no other. Do you know what "Worship" means? It means nothing other than bow down.
javajo
Well-Known Member
I believe the Bible, all of it, I understand it differently than you, but I believe it is all God's Word. You pick and choose the parts you want to believe then twist them to fit your works based religion that doesn't save anybody We are saved by grace through faith apart from works as the Bible clearly says over and over.
Here are 2 Commentaries on that. Read more, you will find you are wrong.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Whose soever sins ye remit - See the notes on Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18. It is certain God alone can forgive sins; and it would not only be blasphemous, but grossly absurd, to say that any creature could remit the guilt of a transgression which had been committed against the Creator. The apostles received from the Lord the doctrine of reconciliation, and the doctrine of condemnation. They who believed on the Son of God, in consequence of their preaching, had their sins remitted; and they who would not believe were declared to lie under condemnation. The reader is desired to consult the note referred to above, where the custom to which our Lord alludes is particularly considered. Dr. Lightfoot supposes that the power of life and death, and the power of delivering over to Satan, which was granted to the apostles, is here referred to. This was a power which the primitive apostles exclusively possessed.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleWhose soever sins ye remit,.... God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,
they are remitted unto them; in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see Mark 16:16. On the other hand he signifies, that
whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained: that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.
No, you are to worship God. Worship means bow down but it means more than that. It means to deem God worthy of our praise and devotion. To give him 'worth-ship' if you will. I worship Jesus because he is God. I don't worship anyone or anything else.
Shermana
Heretic
Picking and choosing with adherence to scholarly evidence and opinion, whereas you go by the traditional Orthodox canon as it is as if that's all the evidence you need that the Canon of Paul's epistles and the whole of the Books are divinely inspired. What you mean to say it that "Paul says it over and over" in the face of what Jesus and John and James say. You are the one picking and choosing what words you go by and then twisting them. You are welcome to believe I am the one twisting and "picking and choosing", anyone can see all the verses I bring that you either ignore or try to get Paul to "trump and negate" as I have accused you of many times to no objection. You yourself say you don't have to actually listen to the words of Jesus for your salvation. You said that when Jesus says "Work hard to enter the Kingdom" he was only talking to Jews.
Let the reader decide who is picking and choosing.
Talking about faith that doesn't save anyone, James specifically said of your type of faith "Can such faith save"? But I assume you will say that I'm twisting what James says since you believe that Works are the fruit of the saved. When asked what kinds of works that "Only" Saved Christians do, your response is what anyone else can do. This pattern happens with many.
Why don't you explain how those commentaries go against what I said and how I'm wrong by what they say when they agree with me.
Worship only means to bow down. Kings are bowed down to. Anything other than "Bow down to" beyond the direct implications are semantics. The commandment is to "Worship G-d and Serve him only". And serve him only. You are still allowed to "Worship" angels as Angels were worshiped in the OT.
New International Version (©1984)
Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
Strong's Hebrew: 7812. ?????? (shachah) -- to bow down
bow (5), bow ourselves down (1), bow yourselves down (1), bow down (21), bowed (16), bowed in worship (1), bowed themselves down (2), bowed down (14), bowing (1), bowing down (1), bows down (1), did homage (1), down in homage (1), homage (1), lie down (1), paid homage (3), prostrate (2), prostrated (13), prostrating (1), weighs it down (1), worship (47), worshiped (31), worshiping (3), worships (2).
What you cannot do is worship other gods as "god of the gods". "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" means "Thou shalt not honor and serve the authority of any god other than me/consider them superior".
The word "Worship" in English used to be used by Judges, it actually means "Worthship" and the idea of kneeling (a form of bowing) came from someone's "Worth-ship". Judges were called "Your worth-ship" which became "Worship" just like how others were called "Your majesty". In Hebrew, it merely means "Bow down" but this concept in English changed over the years.
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javajo
Well-Known Member
Ok. I believe the books that met the very strict criteria the early church fathers set forth under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and which have been accepted and received by learned Christians for hundreds of years. Upon studying the subject, I believe I have the Word of God in my Bible and that is what I base my faith, doctrine and practice on.
I believe in works. Someone who says they have faith but has no works to evidence that faith is not saved. However, we are not always able to see if they have works, only God sees the heart. We can have a good idea sometimes and if we see the works we can assume they have the professed faith and they are justified before men at least.
No. All kinds of people, atheists agnostic, and theists alike can do good works. I do believe that very mature Christians can exhibit a grace that supersedes that of others. For they can attain the unconditional love Christ taught, to love their enemies, to do good to them, to never return evil for evil, to suffer patiently doing good while others do evil to you, to die for one's friends. I don't see that much with other religions.
Shermana
Heretic
Your definition of "Early Church Fathers" is 200-400 A.D. Orthodox fathers, my idea is that most of the later "Fathers" were accursed heretics who wrote their own doctrines and declared the original Nazarenes to be heretics, and included interpolations to suit their doctrines as the "Church" solidified its control, and that a few of the "Heretic" groups had the right Canon in the beginning. I believe the Muratorian fragment proves that Apocalypse of Peter was considered as Canon by most "Early Christians" or at least by that region. You believe that they were led by the Holy Spirit, that's fine, I don't. I believe that attesting to things that they were led by the Holy Spirit as an argument copout in lieu of the scholarly evidence may be a sin, but that's just my opinion. I will take a risk and say that when Matthew wrote his original "Gospel to the Hebrews" he may have been led by the Spirit, but I don't believe the Churches who rejected the Pastoral Epistles weren't led while the later churches were. You are welcome to your opinion, but when it comes to scholarly doctrine, the reader should note that almost all of the modern "Orthodox" doctrines seem to come from dubious epistles, and there is in fact a tendency for its adherents to rely on these to "Trump and negate" other verses that have more scholarly concensus.
Your definition of works is different than mine then.
The question of what kind of works specifically is a notably difficult one, not just for you but for all who say this canned rhetoric.
So then, the gist of what you're saying is that works aren't related with visible actions or behavior? It's true that one may have an evil heart while doing them, but what are "Works" exactly, and what are the differences that G-d would see in the hearts of one who has no works or another? These specifics and details are troubling for most who adhere to this.
We can? Explain how specifically. That's a pretty vague statement by any standard. Justified before men? Frat boys who go to brothels are justified by men. Now what? Charlie Sheen is justified by millions of fans. Most Christians are not well liked by non-Christians. And even then, there is much petty drama in most Christian communities it seems. How does that apply to being justified before men?
Okay, so that totally goes against what you said earlier with the word "only" unless your definition of works differs for them in this case.
.
What does "Exhibit a grace" mean? Good behavior? Why does it matter if a Christian is mature or not if they are saved? What is the difference? What does it matter ? Is a Christian frat brat who takes advantage of a drunk girl just immature, and needs to grow up?
I have yet to see this exhibited.
Well looks like they are very very rare then. I haven't met one yet.
Jesus gave doubting Thomas a mild rebuke at John 20v29.
John is clear that what he wrote at verse 31 that he [John] wrote was so that we might believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God......
Just because doubting Thomas exclaimed My Lord and my God did not mean he was addressing Jesus directly because even today we hear on news reports of people exclaiming, "O my God" and we know they are not calling the reporter as God, but calling out to God.
The resurrected Jesus made it quite clear at John [20v17] that he still has a God over him. What does Jesus say at Revelation 3v12 ?
Your whole view is in the verses above are centered on the word work.
You will never see the other side of works until you are able to see God's grace.
Yes, all those scriptures stress the work of obedience, but who could be obedient to the degree that would earn their own salvation?
The answer to that question is none.
Only God Himself could honor His own requirement, for after all......He is the one and only God, and besides Him there are no others.
Blessings, AJ
I knew some one would pick up on it. The real reason is because God can not die.
Jesus had it within Him to raise Himself from Hell, but waited till the Father did it for Him.
You see, it is total obedience of which only God could do.
The point is that God created and in the process of creation the created became lost.
God then moved to save that which was lost by Him and in Him only.
Blessings, AJ
If I be your servant, would I still be your servant if I said I were you?
But, if I were you as a servant employed in carrying out your mission as a servant, it wouldn't work if I said I were you, would it?
You see, Jesus had to be as one of us in order to win for us victory over the flesh, and only as God could He accomplish that feat.
Blessings, AJ
Saying that humans can't accomplish that is pretty sad especially with being created in Gods image. Furthermore I don't see why he couldn't just be the Son of God to do it. I wonder, when God has a son does he automatically become God or does God have to bestow the title onto his son?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Then you're talking about multiple gods then because "God" of the OT had no reason to become that which it created in order to punish or "save" it creation.
It is not that humans could not accomplish that feat, it is that God didn't want it that way, since He alone is God and not another will share His throne.
Therefore, God alone, as Jesus will rescue Gods creation from eternal damnation due to the creation process.
He was the Son of God born after the spirit of God and not of the spirit of the first Adam.
That makes Jesus a person of the flesh yet not subject to the spiritual conditions of the cursed Adam, until the time God places on Him the sins of the world and nails them to the cross.
Hence, God's providing the sacrificial Ram (Jesus) to Abraham freeing up Issac (US).
Now you have God alone as Savior of the world and mankind having nothing to do with it except in carrying out the will of God as did the high priests who condemned Jesus.
Ever wonder why Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"?
Blessings, AJ
Multiple gods are we, but Jesus born of God is God himself in human form not subject to the same spiritual conditions as Adam.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Adam (we) are none of those save God alone.
Punishment is a self inflicted condition meaning that whatever evil we do, we are accountable to it's consequences.
What God does is manage it so that we can learn from our experiences and to, to fulfill His own goals in saving us all.
For example lets take you , if you go and speed relentlessly in your car, you might get away with it for a while, but are you not only placing yourself in danger but others as well.
What God does is help you out by having a cop at the right place and at the right time catch you and giving you a ticket.
Perhaps you might call that God punishing you, but instead God is helping out by bringing this think to a head so that perhaps you might repent and not speed any more.
After, of-course, you paid a hefty fine.
God is love and He deals with us not in anger but in love.
Blessings, AJ
This quote is very telling of what was going. Jesus seemed to always be about forgiveness and even about loving thy enemy. He is asking god to forgive someone who is harming his son. Would god have forgiven if Jesus had not asked? Maybe maybe not but it is a clear attempt to bring about a forgiving god. If god can forgive for harming his own son god can forgive for anything but it doesn't mean that god couldn't have done it prior to sacrificing his son. I doubt it had to be that drastic as Jesus was already preaching of love and forgiveness and that quote only shows the same qualities he had been displaying throughout his ministry. It doesn't mean Jesus needed to be god to do this especially if he is asking God to do the forgiving.