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Did Jesus say he was God???

Muffled

Jesus in me
Rejecting your declaration of personal prophetic inspiration is not rejecting G-d. But I appreciate you revealing that you demand personal prophetic acknowledgement. You are facing a mighty severe Heavenly punishment if you do not repent of this false declaration of personal prophecy. In fact, I'd personally have you mentally evaluated. I hope you realize that you can't force people to accept you as a prophet as part of your argument, you have to actually debate and not rely on demanding their acceptance from others of you as speaking Holy Truth without question.

Sadly, it seems so many Trinitarians resort to this demand for Accepting some degree of prophetic inspiration within them when they can't actually argue their case. Sadly.

Rejecting a declaration means little but rejecting because you can't recognize God means much.

I demand nothing. I have simply informed you that God speaks through me.

If my declaration were false I would be in big trouble but God has blessed me greatly, has worked through me to save people and continues to bless me greatly. If He wanted to stop me all He would have to do is take my life. He said that He could do that anytime He wants.

The psychologists are as daffy as daffy duck. I wouldn't trust one as far as I could throw one. This is an old tactic. A person believing in God must be mentally deficient or insane. Of course the person doing the analyzing is fine. That is the most self serving analysis ever attempted. (or as Festus put it: Ac 26:24 And as he thus made his defense, Festus saith with a loud voice, Paul, thou art mad; thy much learning is turning thee mad.)

I have all these pages and you think I don't appeal to reason! I am simply saying that I can make al these reasonable arguments but it won't make a bit of diffeence to you if you can't see God in the arguments. If a blind man reads a book what is he going to say he is reading?

Sadly there is no argument that can help you in your present condition. A change of heart would be good. Getting to know God would be even better.

 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I haven't read every single post, so this might have already been covered.

To define the assumption Jesus calming to be God doesn't add up to his sacrifice of his own son, Jesus. So God is punishing us for his "sacrifice" of his son(Though, he says we are all his children), Jesus. But Jesus is God is he not? So this circle will keep back-firing.

This might be new to this thread but is present in other threads, perhaps presented a bit differently.

I did not provide an assumption in the OP; I proovided evidence.

I am not sure to what "us" you are referring. Evil deeds such as crucifying God will not go unpunished unless the person repents. The sacrifice is the assurance by God's own participation that we will be forgiven.

I am not sure what the concept is here. God never suffers backfires so it would be futile to argue that.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I did not provide an assumption in the OP; I proovided evidence.

You asked a direct question in the OP and the answer is NO. What followed was your assumption by the lists of verses you presented. If it was truly "evidence" as you claim there would hardly be any dispute but we find ourselves 470 pages and 4683 comments later......As I've said before this is not a new subject and will remain a circular discussion on the matter.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Compared to that, what you have is a joke.

Again, it's a subject raised by scholars and theologians the like. Eseubius and Origen are regarded as historical persons writing history. I respect the fact that you and I are in disagreement but your tone is a little disrespectful. Lively debate is fine but you seem to take it to another level.

But you surely ignored a lot of posts here.

I read them....and I've seen the information before and it still doesn't change the historical record.....:sad:
 

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
Again, it's a subject...
I've already given at least ten different quotings of the verse, some of them before your guys.
Picking Eusebius and Origen (whose quotes were even different from each other) over tens of others only shows a biased view.
I don't mean to insult you, but the evidence given by your scholars is the joke. It's nowhere near the hundreds or thousands of manuscripts, translations or quotes.

I read them....and I've seen the information before and it still doesn't change the historical record.....:sad:
If that's what you want to believe. I don't really care.
 

Shermana

Heretic
some of them before your guys.
And when I show you that they're interpolations you start accusing me of hating everyone Roman and then go back to repeat your argument as if it's just 'useless words".
 

Shermana

Heretic
A person believing in God must be mentally deficient or insane.
No, you're demanding me to believe that G-d has spoken through you, as a substitute for rational debate. That's a clear state of mental instability. I fully believe in G-d. You don't believe that I do because I don't believe He talks through you. Rather, I think He is quite wrathful at you for pretending to be a prophet. You equate "Believing in G-d" with "Believing in me as a prophet". That's mental instability. If you DO hear voices, I know for a fact they're not Angelic. You cannot force people on a debate forum to accept that G-d talks through you when they disagree with you. Is that clear? Do I need to have a mod explain this to you?
Sadly there is no argument that can help you in your present condition.
This is perfect proof. You utterly ignore everything and all things the other side has to say, and then say stuff like "There's no argument for your present condition". I know it may be odd for you to deal with people who actually disagree with you with facts and evidence and show how your interpretations are wrong, but you're on the wrong board if you don't want to do the same. You don't bother to actually show why you think the other interpretation is wrong, you simply accuse them of denying G-d (because they denied you), who are you hoping to convince here?

Rejecting a declaration means little but rejecting because you can't recognize God means much.
Accusing me of not recognizing G-d because I disagree with you I'd say the common concensus would be "Nutty". I know for a fact G-d does not talk to you, and I'd bet that you're looking at H-E double sticks for your sin of trying to convince (demand) people that he does.

I have all these pages and you think I don't appeal to reason! I am simply saying that I can make al these reasonable arguments but it won't make a bit of diffeence to you

This reminds of me when Evolutionists back out of their claims when they say "THere's no proof I can show that would convince you". You do NOT appeal to reason. What do you mean "All these pages"? All these pages of what? Your posts? Are you saying you don't have to actually try to respond to the counterarguments against your OP because there's no point? THen get off the debate forums!


As DP points out to you, you basically say "Here's the evidence", and then if anyone tries to show you that it's NOT the evidence you think it is, and that rather it's a bunch of misinterpretations, and they show you with the actual context and Grammar, you act like this. And Christians wonder why their numbers are plummeting. People like you are definitely contributing to the general growing distaste for Christianity. Maybe you have people in your hometown who actually think G-d talks through you, that's nice if so. But to me, it's an indicator when someone says "Believe me or you deny G-d", that they deserve less than respect. Unfortunately, this seems to be what NUMEROUS Trinitarians and Antinomians often resort to when they can't defend their arguments.

Your basic premise is: "Unless you agree with me, you're wrong, unless you think I'm a prophet of G-d, you're wrong". That may work for you on your own time, but not on a debate forum.
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Picking Eusebius and Origen (whose quotes were even different from each other) over tens of others only shows a biased view.

I'm not being biased at all. I accept the fact that Matthew 28:19 is there and at the present time it's going nowhere. I'm not even bothered by it and I also accept the fact that some early theologians quoted it that way...."BUT" I also accept the fact that other historians, theologian and early church fathers quoted it totally different. Now that's not being biased at all. You only accept the one quote so I think you have me confused with you.


I don't mean to insult you, but the evidence given by your scholars is the joke. It's nowhere near the hundreds or thousands of manuscripts, translations or quotes.

I see no problem investigating it considering throughout the 4 gospels that's the only baptism reference in that formula. Yeshua gave specific commandments on baptism that seem to contradict that verse and not much longer after his "death" followers were baptizing in the name (Yeshua) solely.
 

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
I'm not being biased at all...
As I said, you gave 2 that quoted it differently which further undermines this evidence, against many that quoted it exactly as we have it.
And which one quote are you talking about? I've given at least ten and I have other tens of quotes exactly the same form as we have it now.


I see no problem investigating it considering throughout the 4 gospels that's the only baptism reference in that formula. solely.
I have no problem with investigating anything. But I think you would acknowledge that the evidence against it is too weak if not almost nonexistent.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
I'm just glad that (I believe) infinite God, not a finite angel, died for my sins so that I, being finite would not have to spend infinity paying for them. I don't think a finite/created angel could get the job done as well as holy, righteous and infinite God.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
As I said, you gave 2 that quoted it differently which further undermines this evidence, against many that quoted it exactly as we have it.

Not a problem for me if that is what you want to believe. The formula exist only in that verse and is contrary to what the followers recorded in your scripture. Other historical figures quoted it differently which is in line with what the followers were teaching very shortly after the death of Yeshua.

Catholic Encyclopedia Vol. II (p. 263)
St. Ambrose "Unless a person has been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost he can not retain the remission of his sins."

That is spot on to the version you currently have in your bibles but the actions soon after Yeshua's death say otherwise. The encyclopedia says this formula was "obligatory". It quotes Tertullian as saying "The law of baptism has been imposed and the form prescribed".

If what St. Ambrose and Tertullian say is correct then why didn't the disciples use this formula? (rhetorical question) considering the following.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 4:10-12
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:16
For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19:3-5
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

We see this same formula, contrary to your version of Matt. 28:19, expressed at Galatians 3:27, Acts 10:48, Romans 6:1-4.

Luke 24:46-47
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.



I have no problem with investigating anything. But I think you would acknowledge that the evidence against it is too weak if not almost nonexistent.

Once again, it's not a problem if that is what you believe but it appears the early church did not feel the same way. They understood that baptizing "in the name of Jesus" instead of the supposed triune formula was not some isolated occurrence. Catholics writing about their history give credence to the verse Eusebius had which was contrary to other existing verses of the day.

Catholic Encyclopedia Vol. II (p. 263)
"Converts from Sebellianism were ordered by the First Council of Constantinople to be re-baptized because the doctrine of Sebellius that there was but one person in the Trinity had infected their baptismal form."

The two groups, the Paulianist and Photinians were ordered by the Council of Nicea and the Council of Arles to be rebaptized because they did not use the trinity formula. As you continue reading the Catholic history on page 263 it's obvious there were contrary teachings on baptism and other sects were baptizing in the name of Yeshua. As he commanded them to baptize in his name in order to be saved and is what his disciples did, even Paul it seems confirms this.
 
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Mark2020

Well-Known Member
Not a problem for me ...
You might recall that I showed Tertullian quoted it exactly as we have, check my post with the early quotes.

As for your quotes, I'll quote Gill:
"in the name of Jesus Christ; not to the exclusion of the Father, and of the Spirit, in whose name also this ordinance is to be administered, Mt 28:19, but the name of Jesus Christ is particularly mentioned, because of these Jews, who had before rejected and denied him as the Messiah; but now, upon their repentance and faith, they are to be baptized in his name, by his authority, according to his command; professing their faith in him, devoting themselves to him, and calling on his name."

Once again, it's not a problem if that is what you believe ...
You've started to use my words a lot lately.
Anyway the overwhelming evidence is in favor of the authenticity of this verse, as I previously showed. The one who doesn't accept that is the one who "wants to believe" what he wishes. Still, what you said doesn't disprove the verse. We have a lot of earlier quotes of the verse.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
I'm just glad that (I believe) infinite God, not a finite angel, died for my sins so that I, being finite would not have to spend infinity paying for them. I don't think a finite/created angel could get the job done as well as holy, righteous and infinite God.
It's god making the rules. Forgiving humans is as simple as his willing it whether before or after any sacrifice. God wants exalt humans it is as simple as his willing it. God becoming human in order to exalt them is overkill big time. God sure doesn't need to become his creation to do it.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
You might recall that I showed Tertullian quoted it exactly as we have, check my post with the early quotes.

I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying he didn't rather highlighting that he said ("The law of baptism has been imposed and the form prescribed") but Peter did the exact opposite and baptized in the name of Yeshua and not using the supposed triune formula.

As for your quotes, I'll quote Gill:
"in the name of Jesus Christ; not to the exclusion of the Father, and of the Spirit, in whose name also this ordinance is to be administered, Mt 28:19, but the name of Jesus Christ is particularly mentioned, because of these Jews, who had before rejected and denied him as the Messiah; but now, upon their repentance and faith, they are to be baptized in his name, by his authority, according to his command; professing their faith in him, devoting themselves to him, and calling on his name."

Such is his opinion as to what Peter or others (might have) meant. The Catholic Encyclopedia Vol. II (p. 263) expresses the history differently and informs us various sects were baptizing solely in the name of Yeshua as well as some rebelling against the triune formula.


the overwhelming evidence is in favor of the authenticity of this verse, as I previously showed.

I've already answered this. We don't find the commandment in Mark which is where scholars say Mathew got his material. We find something to the contrary which is inline with the actions of the apostles and Paul after the death of Yeshua as well as the words from Eusebius.

Mark 16:15-16
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 24:46-47 is consistent with Mark on this seeing as though scholars believe Luke drew from Mark as well.

Luke 24:46-47
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The current Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15-16 and Luke 24:46-47.....one of these things is not like the other.
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The commandment doesn't have to be in every gospel.

:sarcastic


Matthew didn't get his material form Mark, that's absurd.

:facepalm:

Gospel of Matthew
"It is the near-universal position of scholarship that the Gospel of Matthew is dependent upon the Gospel of Mark."

Gospel of Luke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Most modern critical scholarship concludes that Luke used the Gospel of Mark for his chronology and a hypothetical sayings source Q document for many of Jesus' teachings."
 
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