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Did Jesus say he was God???

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I don't agree that attributions are good evidence. How reliable are the witnesses calling Jesus "Son of God.


The the question to you is, do you trust that the bible is the word of God? If you do then what reason would you have for doubting what is written. If that is the case then what weight does the bible truely have? You have presented chapter and verse to us as if you believe it to be true. Why now do you apppear to take issue with its authenticity?


It is only God who can call himself God[/QUOTE]

And we know Jesus was in agreement with you on this. He could not call himself God.

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, Why do you say I am good? no one is good but one, and that is God.

Trinitarians love to believe that Jesus was 100% mand and 100% God..... (Whatever that means), but in this very stament he declares he is not equal to God.

He clearly has shown seperation and that he was not God's equal.

 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The the question to you is, do you trust that the bible is the word of God? If you do then what reason would you have for doubting what is written. If that is the case then what weight does the bible truely have? You have presented chapter and verse to us as if you believe it to be true. Why now do you apppear to take issue with its authenticity?


It is only God who can call himself God[/QUOTE]

And we know Jesus was in agreement with you on this. He could not call himself God.

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, Why do you say I am good? no one is good but one, and that is God.

Trinitarians love to believe that Jesus was 100% mand and 100% God..... (Whatever that means), but in this very stament he declares he is not equal to God.

He clearly has shown seperation and that he was not God's equal.


Yes. However that does not mean that every concept expressed is correct. God allows the viewpoint of men to be used for His glory. The rich young ruler was not able to see that Jesus was God even though Jesus was trying to lead him to that belief. Jesus said "I am the Good Shepherd."
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
i agree with Scott. perhaps God was manifest through the person of Jesus in order to reveal some of His presence and truths to humans, but i can not believe the *one man* who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago contained the full presence of God in human form, and all truth, and that is it. it is too... limiting. many Christians, my mother included, argue that "God can do anything and become anything, so why can't He come to earth as Jesus?" yes, surely God is not limited in His presence of forms, i agree with this. what i can not accept is the singularity of this occurence- what i believe Jesus was trying to say is that "we are all a part of God" (to paraphrase) and that "the kingdom of heaven is within".

I have answered Scott's argument in a previous post but for your benefit I will reiterate. God is one. There is not a piece of God in Jesus and other pieces elsewhere. Therefore althought the entire presence of God is not in Jesus, we get to see the entirety of God in Jesus not a piece.

Try this for a metaphor. Someone comes to your house and sticks his head into your doorway so that you only see the head. You can not say that that person didn't visit you because his whole body wasn't in the doorway. The person who came to visit you was still whole. His body did not become disengaged from his head. However what you got to see was what that person was willing to reveal.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Muffled try this for a metaphor:

God is Single. Therefore He cannot be multiplied or divided. Since He cannot be multiplied or divided His entirety cannot be seen in any part of Creation. Jesus as the Word Made Flesh is a part of Creation, therefore Jesus cannot contain any part of and certainly not the whole of God.

Regards,
Scott
 

Hope

Princesinha
And we know Jesus was in agreement with you on this. He could not call himself God.

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, Why do you say I am good? no one is good but one, and that is God.

Trinitarians love to believe that Jesus was 100% mand and 100% God..... (Whatever that means), but in this very stament he declares he is not equal to God.

He clearly has shown seperation and that he was not God's equal.


You simply misunderstand the verse. It's important to remember that Jesus claimed to be God, and equal with God, many times. It's one of the main reasons the Pharisees wanted Him dead----because, in their eyes, He was blaspheming when He claimed to be God. If this verse means what you're saying it means, then why would Jesus contradict Himself?

I used to be confused a bit by this verse too, until I heard an explanation that really opened up my eyes. First of all, in this verse Jesus does not come right out and say He isn't God. It's easy to jump to that conclusion, but when you read the verse carefully, you see He isn't actually saying that. That is just our immediate assumption. He is actually making a brilliant observation, that rings true even today.

He starts off with a question: "Why do you say I am good?" One thing that is so fascinating about Jesus is how He often uses questions to get at people's real intentions, and to reveal their misguided assumptions. He does this over and over in the New Testament. He is doing the same thing here. It's a brilliant, probing tactic. People keep calling Him good, so He asks them, Why do you say I'm good?

He's asking a very valid question. Why do we call anyone good? Do we really know what goodness is? And after He asks that, He immediately brings in the clincher---"no one is really good but God." In two sentences---one a question, one a statement---He shatters every assumption we have about the definition of goodness. What we think of as good is not good at all compared to God. So, in essence, what He is actually saying is, "Either I am good because I am God, or I am not good at all, and I am not God."

So He's leaving the decision about Who He is in our hands. We cannot say He is merely a good man----because no man is truly good. If, however, we insist on calling Him good, then we must also call Him God. Wow!! So He is not denying His divinity at all. He is merely revealing the inherent contradiction of calling Him good but not calling Him God. He is either both or neither.


 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Hope,

The Pharisees accused Jesus of elevating Himself to the level of God and Jesus pointed out that every man and woman who lives or ever lived was the son or daughter of God. The Pharisees were in the position of condoning Christ's actions meant they were putting themselves out of a job filled with perks and respect.

I understand how you interpret those verses as you do, because you are forced to make that argument because you've been taught the "answer" before the question ever occured to you. It makes for circular reasoning.

Regards,
Scott
 

Hope

Princesinha
Hope,

The Pharisees accused Jesus of elevating Himself to the level of God and Jesus pointed out that every man and woman who lives or ever lived was the son or daughter of God. The Pharisees were in the position of condoning Christ's actions meant they were putting themselves out of a job filled with perks and respect.

Your explanation is insufficient. Of course the Pharisees felt threatened by Him, but what ultimately got Him killed was His "blasphemy." Read the Gospels. It's pretty clear about that.

What about when Jesus said He and the Father were one? What about when He said He was the "I AM"? These statements are not on the same level as being a son of God, but the Son of God. Huge difference one little article can make. There are many sons and daughters of God, but only one Son of God.

Also, another indication that Jesus was God was His ability to forgive sins. It would be utterly ridiculous and laughable for Jesus to go around forgiving people's sins against God if He weren't God Himself. What arrogance to assume He had the power to forgive sins, right? Unless, of course, He really was God, and really had that power. The Pharisees saw this as blasphemy as well, because they were smart enough to know that only God can forgive sins.

I understand how you interpret those verses as you do, because you are forced to make that argument because you've been taught the "answer" before the question ever occured to you. It makes for circular reasoning.

Regards,
Scott

No it's not circular reasoning. Please don't make assumptions about my knowledge of my faith when you don't know me. I look at the whole of Scripture and see what makes sense. I don't believe what I do simply because someone taught me, or told me to. I believe because I have studied and I have questioned and I have researched and nothing else out there makes as much sense. I have no more been "taught the answer" than you have.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Show me where Jesus says He is the " I AM"?

Jesus was ONE with God in purpose, not in material terms.

Hope, a teacup cannot contain the entirety of the oceans and a man, no matter how wondrous and wise cannot contain the Essence of God.

God is ONE, indivisable, and he cannot be multiplied. If God is God, nothing else is God.

Regards,
Scott
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Show me where Jesus says He is the " I AM"?

Jesus was ONE with God in purpose, not in material terms.

Hope, a teacup cannot contain the entirety of the oceans and a man, no matter how wondrous and wise cannot contain the Essence of God.

God is ONE, indivisable, and he cannot be multiplied. If God is God, nothing else is God.

Regards,
Scott

So goes your god concept.
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
To say that Jesus did not claim to be more than a prophet is a little ridiculous. This is where Muhammed and Jesus do differ, whether we wish to see it or not. Muhammed would have never claimed to be one with God or say that if you have seen him that you have seen God.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
To say that Jesus did not claim to be more than a prophet is a little ridiculous. This is where Muhammed and Jesus do differ, whether we wish to see it or not. Muhammed would have never claimed to be one with God or say that if you have seen him that you have seen God.

But Abdu'l Baha says much the same thing of all the Manifestations:

"The dawning-place of these splendors, the place of these reflections, and the appearance of these manifestations are the Holy Dawning-places, the Universal Realities and the Divine Beings, Who are the true mirrors of the sanctified Essence of God. All the perfections, the bounties, the splendors which come from God are visible and evident in the Reality of the Holy Manifestations, like the sun which is resplendent in a clear polished mirror with all its perfections and bounties. 148 If it be said that the mirrors are the manifestations of the sun and the dawning-places of the rising star, this does not mean that the sun has descended from the height of its sanctity and become incorporated in the mirror, nor that the Unlimited Reality is limited to this place of appearance. God forbid! This is the belief of the adherents of anthropomorphism. No; all the praises, the descriptions and exaltations refer to the Holy Manifestations -- that is to say, all the descriptions, the qualities, the names and the attributes which we mention return to the Divine Manifestations; but as no one has attained to the reality of the Essence of Divinity, so no one is able to describe, explain, praise or glorify it. Therefore, all that the human reality knows, discovers and understands of the names, the attributes and the perfections of God refer to these Holy Manifestations. There is no access to anything else: "the way is closed, and seeking is forbidden.""
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 147)

To amplify from the small quotation attributed to Baha`u'llah at the end of the above:

"XIX. To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount 47 His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving."...
The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 46)

"It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendour. Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He verily speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established. Inasmuch as the return of the Prophets of God, as attested by verses and traditions, hath been conclusively demonstrated, the return of their chosen ones also is therefore definitely proven."
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 153)

Regards,
Scott
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
And I understand that. But to say that all of the Manifestations of God seen themselves in the same light is a blatant attempt at restructuring the books and traditions of all religions. When Jesus claimed equality with the Father God in the Bible, Muhammed claimed that NOTHING compares to Allah. That is precisely why many Muslims reject the authority and authenticity of the Bible.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
And I understand that. But to say that all of the Manifestations of God seen themselves in the same light is a blatant attempt at restructuring the books and traditions of all religions. When Jesus claimed equality with the Father God in the Bible, Muhammed claimed that NOTHING compares to Allah. That is precisely why many Muslims reject the authority and authenticity of the Bible.

That is precisely why Baha`u'llah sets things straight. The traditions are not the scripture, and the dogma that came to be "tradition" is in error.

Regards,
Scott
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Yes. However that does not mean that every concept expressed is correct. God allows the viewpoint of men to be used for His glory. The rich young ruler was not able to see that Jesus was God even though Jesus was trying to lead him to that belief. Jesus said "I am the Good Shepherd."

And none of his good shephred speech had anything to do with him being God. In fact, he glorified God in that speech and once again showed us that he was not God.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
You simply misunderstand the verse.

Hardly. I understand it quite well.

It's important to remember that Jesus claimed to be God, and equal with God, many times.

Never did he claim to be God or claim to be equal with God. If you believe this then bring forth your scripture.

I used to be confused a bit by this verse too, until I heard an explanation that really opened up my eyes.

Again, I'm not confused on this at all. It was plain and clear to me when I read it.

First of all, in this verse Jesus does not come right out and say He isn't God.

(Why do you call me good? There's none good but God.) That certainly means he isn't God.

He asked a question and gave a declaration. I you want to try and figure out what he meant then ponder away. His message was quite clear to me.

If, however, we insist on calling Him good, then we must also call Him God.

Jesus was good. There, I said it. And that still doesn't make him a God. In his statement he showed that he was not equal to God. Just because I call him good doesn't make him God.

So He is not denying His divinity at all.

You have never heard me deny the divinity of Jesus. He was divine because it was granted to him by God. Divinity and deity are not the same thing.
 

autonomous1one1

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Greetings. Wow, this is a marvelous thread - all 48 pgs and 672 posts. I have been absent for much of the summer and have just recently discovered it. My reading covered every word. Let me offer comments from an independent source albeit late. My comments are only for a few in RF anyway.

The reader can learn something about the Bible, interpretations, grammar, logic, false reasoning, Jesus, etc. from lucid, learned, and gifted posters in this thread. However, no clear cut winner to the debate is apparent and it ends in stalemate without conclusion. This leaves an absolute impasse between religions on a critical issue that could shake some foundations of one or the other religion.

From my perspective, there is a solution. One must seek and experience one's own realization of union with God. With such realization comes the answer and understanding of this human-God mystery.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Greetings. Wow, this is a marvelous thread - all 48 pgs and 672 posts. I have been absent for much of the summer and have just recently discovered it. My reading covered every word. Let me offer comments from an independent source albeit late. My comments are only for a few in RF anyway.

The reader can learn something about the Bible, interpretations, grammar, logic, false reasoning, Jesus, etc. from lucid, learned, and gifted posters in this thread. However, no clear cut winner to the debate is apparent and it ends in stalemate without conclusion. This leaves an absolute impasse between religions on a critical issue that could shake some foundations of one or the other religion.

From my perspective, there is a solution. One must seek and experience one's own realization of union with God. With such realization comes the answer and understanding of this human-God mystery.

This is not the case. No poster has been able to adequately refute the OP. I would declare myself the winner by default if I thought the debate was complete but I suspect that there is more to learn yet. Granted there are some posters who are stuck so firmly in their own concepts that they can't perceive God but I haven't completely given up on them.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Muffled try this for a metaphor:

God is Single. Therefore He cannot be multiplied or divided. Since He cannot be multiplied or divided His entirety cannot be seen in any part of Creation. Jesus as the Word Made Flesh is a part of Creation, therefore Jesus cannot contain any part of and certainly not the whole of God.

Regards,
Scott

This statement is blasphemy for a Christian or a Muslim because it denies the omnipresence of God. It is also a direct contradiction to the Bible which states that God revealed Himself to Moses.

It is certainly not my contention that Jesus contains God but that God is in Jesus as a human spirit is in the flesh, as the controlling spirit of that body.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
No it does not deny the omnipresence of God. God IS evrywhere and everywh4en but we do not perceive Him with our material senses.

Human spirits are associated with human bodies. The Spirit of God can be called upon, but the reality of God is totally beyond our capacity.

Baha`i's refer to Jesus as the Spirit of God all the time.

"Behold how the people, as a result of the verdict pronounced by the divines of His age, have cast 57 Abraham, the Friend of God, into fire; how Moses, He Who held converse with the Almighty, was denounced as liar and slanderer. Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God, was, notwithstanding His extreme meekness and perfect tender-heartedness, treated by His enemies. So fierce was the opposition which He, the Essence of Being and Lord of the visible and invisible, had to face, that He had nowhere to lay His head. He wandered continually from place to place, deprived of a permanent abode. Ponder that which befell Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, may the life of all else be a sacrifice unto Him. How severe the afflictions which the leaders of the Jewish people and of the idol-worshipers caused to rain upon Him, Who is the sovereign Lord of all, in consequence of His proclamation of the unity of God and of the truth of His Message! By the righteousness of My Cause! My Pen groaneth, and all created things weep with a great weeping, as a result of the woes He suffered at the hands of them that have broken the Covenant of God, violated His Testament, rejected His proofs, and disputed His signs. Thus recount We unto thee the tale of that which happened in days past, haply thou mayest comprehend."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 56)

Regards,
Scott
 
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