Did Jesus say he was God???

[lew0049]

Muffled try this for a metaphor:

God is Single. Therefore He cannot be multiplied or divided. Since He cannot be multiplied or divided His entirety cannot be seen in any part of Creation. Jesus as the Word Made Flesh is a part of Creation, therefore Jesus cannot contain any part of and certainly not the whole of God.

Regards,
Scott

Nono, God is a singular Being Scott. The problem with you analysis is that you view God and Jesus as someone from our world - someone that views things Three Diminsional just as we do - and this is inaccurate.
The Bible talks about mankind (anyone who attaches themselves to Christ) as becoming Sons of God. This meaning must be something different though than as the Bible states "becoming" Sons of God, as we are already sons of God is a sense (God is our creator - brought us into existance). Moreso, that Jesus was begotten by His Father before all worlds. Being created is very different than being begotten. Begetting means to become the father of - to create is to "make". When yo beget somethig you make something very similiar to yourself: e.g. when humans have babies. On the other hand, you make something that is completely different than yourself.
What I am saying is this: mankind being "sons of God" is completely different than Christ as being a "Son of God." What God begets can only be God.

Also Scott, find the last post I made on the concept of God as one Being while still being three persons. Obviously this difficult for us to understand, but isn't this what we should expect? Meaning, we can only perceive 2-d and 3-D things - if we were told of something that is lets says 12-D, could we understand it? No, we might get a faint notion of it but that is all.
God can remain one Being who is three persons just as a cube is really 6 squares but remains a cube.

The interesting thing about the Baha faith is that is attempts to unite all religions - or the most well-known ones. But I don't understand how the truth is composed of bringing most religions together as one?
It is a fundmental fact that The God of the Bible (Jesus as well) is viewed as a VERY personal God. Unless all of the writers were wrong - God is and wants to have personal relationships with mankind. When you die, you are united with God so to speak. This is direct contrast to Allah is the Quran - where you have to worship Allah from far in paradise. The relationship here is exactly the opposite - mankind does not have a very personal relationship with God. If both Jesus and Muhammad are prophets as Bahas believe (from God) - they would have identical views on the matter - not exactly the opposite. Tradtion is irrelevant in this matter as these are fundamental concepts.

 

[Popeyesays]

Jesus was from our world. he was born of a woman, just like me.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I read your post. You postulate that God is "Three Persons" and God is not a Person at all. That's why the Trinity makes no sense.


Regards,
Scott

 

[lew0049]

I read your post. You postulate that God is "Three Persons" and God is not a Person at all. That's why the Trinity makes no sense.


Regards,
Scott

Well, because we are obviously not on the same dimension as God, then it would be correct in saying that the Trinity concept full does not make perfect sense. As I said, we can get a faint notion of it but that is all. Just as, if we could only perceive two dimensions, then we would not be able to truly understand if someone was to describe a cube to us.

 

[Popeyesays]

Well, because we are obviously not on the same dimension as God, then it would be correct in saying that the Trinity concept full does not make perfect sense. As I said, we can get a faint notion of it but that is all. Just as, if we could only perceive two dimensions, then we would not be able to truly understand if someone was to describe a cube to us.

We are created beings. God is not. We cannot be the same "dimension". Our existence is dependent upon Creation and God's existence is not. How can we understand God?

I do believe in a "trinity" of sorts, mind you. One that is common to all faiths.

There is God, the Creator Who gives a Revelation of His Essence to a Chosen Manifestation of God's Will Who is human. There is a Giver of the Gift, a Receiver of the Gift and the Gift Itself. That's a Trinity, but it does not divide the essence of God into chunks, nor does it multiply God into more than One Essence, the Source of All Being.

Jesus and the other manifestations of God lived on a different plane of consciousness than the rest of Mankind. They did not have a perfect knowledge of God, but they had a perfect knowledge of the Revelation of God to mankind. They were perfect Servants Who relayed exactly the Message God intended at that moment for mankind, but They knew all of the Revelati0on Perfectly. They spoke as God willed and revelaed less than what They understood--as God willed it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes. However that does not mean that every concept expressed is correct.

As is the case with the trinity.

God allows the viewpoint of men to be used for His glory.

hmmm. I see what you mean. Although Jesus never sought glory. He explicitly said he was not (sent) to glorify himself. As we contstantly see, he glorifies God but even he (Jesus) knew he was nothing more than a servant.

The rich young ruler was not able to see that Jesus was God even though Jesus was trying to lead him to that belief. Jesus said "I am the Good Shepherd."

Him saying There is none good but God has nothing to do with being called the good shepherd. There is none good but God means none are equal to God. We know Jesus was a "good" shepherd. His flock was "given" to him by God.

10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.


10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Even being the "Good Shepherd" he gives glory to God who gave him the sheep. So again, his good shepherd speech and the one above showed that he is sepereate from God thus not being God. As I've said before oneness but not on in the same. Oneness of purpose as others here have said.

If God is greater than all as Jesus said then nothing can be given to God. He can't be given something if it belongs to him in the first place. Any power Jesus had was given to him. It's not my opinion because that is what is written.

God can't be given anything nor can you take away from God because all belongs to God anyway.

 

[logician]

The evidence for existence of a bibilical of a biblical Jesus is virtually nil, by extension the statement that Jesus was "god in the flesh" is a myth.

 

[Popeyesays]

Intellectually and as an historian, I have no trouble dealing with the concept of an historical Jesus.

That being said, no, it is impossible for the Scriptural Jesus or the historical Jesus to be "God in the Flesh."

regards,
Scott

 

[ladyaemawarriorangl]

yes it is true jesus is god in the flesh. in the scripture of 1st or 2nd john it says if no one preaches that the father and son are one do not even bid them god speed. plus the bible says god manifested in flesh seen of angels. there are many scriptures that back this up it is true.

 

[Popeyesays]

Aema,

First and Second John are Epistles and no not contain the direct quotes of Jesus as the Gospels do.

In the Gospels, in Jesus' own words, no such claim is made.

Regards,
Scott

 

[autonomous1one1]

...That being said, no, it is impossible for the Scriptural Jesus or the historical Jesus to be "God in the Flesh."
regards,
Scott

Greetings Scott. In a post above responding to me, Muffled states that the OP has not been refuted and is the winner of this debate so far. I know that you have addressed the points in the OP throughout but would you mind taking Muffled's 'words of Jesus' one by one and indicate your difference in interpretation that shows that Jesus is not God in the Flesh?
Best Wishes

 

[Popeyesays]

Where are the quotes? I don't really feel like digging them out again when I have addressed them. Heck, DreGod addressed them.

If it's Epistalary or Acts or Revelation it is not the words of Jesus, but rather the words of visionaries and commentators.

Jesus does not claim Godhood, in His own words.

Regards,
Scott

 

[autonomous1one1]

Where are the quotes? I don't really feel like digging them out again when I have addressed them. Heck, DreGod addressed them.

If it's Epistalary or Acts or Revelation it is not the words of Jesus, but rather the words of visionaries and commentators.

Jesus does not claim Godhood, in His own words.

Regards,
Scott

Thanks for responding, Popeyesays. Of course it is your option, and more work, and the reader can always read through the 50 pages as I did.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Where are the quotes? I don't really feel like digging them out again when I have addressed them. Heck, DreGod addressed them.

If it's Epistalary or Acts or Revelation it is not the words of Jesus, but rather the words of visionaries and commentators.

Jesus does not claim Godhood, in His own words.

Regards,
Scott

Additionally, I did well to try and get him to Just quote from Matt, Mark, Luke and John....

All of those wriiten opinions and prison letters of Paul have no weight. It was man that deified Jesus. Jesus had no part in it AT ALL. Some here are confusing divinity with deity. They are not the same and being divine does not mean one has to automatically be a god.

All of muffled's quotes have been addressed.....refuted....etc...

 

[autonomous1one1]

Where are the quotes? I don't really feel like digging them out again when I have addressed them. Heck, DreGod addressed them.....
Regards,
Scott

.....All of muffled's quotes have been addressed.....refuted....etc...

Greetings. Well, thanks anyway, but Muffled doesn't agree with you and considers his OP to still stand. I don't blame you all for coming to an end on this thread after 50 pages. I pushed it because it seems to me to be an impasse between fundamentals of the two religions, and thus, an impasse to the wonderful Baha'is intention of unifying religions. However, in my view as posted before there is a unification that will be forthcoming on an increasing basis. It will not be based toatlly on analysis/interpretation/non-interpretation of scripture but more on the personal experience of the individual. The message of Jesus as Christ is his Being, and realization of that New Being is available for each of us. With the realization comes understanding and resolution of the impasse.
Best Wishes,
a..1

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Greetings. Well, thanks anyway, but Muffled doesn't agree with you and considers his OP to still stand. I don't blame you all for coming to an end on this thread after 50 pages. I pushed it because it seems to me to be an impasse between fundamentals of the two religions, and thus, an impasse to the wonderful Baha'is intention of unifying religions. However, in my view as posted before there is a unification that will be forthcoming on an increasing basis. It will not be based toatlly on analysis/interpretation/non-interpretation of scripture but more on the personal experience of the individual. The message of Jesus as Christ is his Being, and realization of that New Being is available for each of us. With the realization comes understanding and resolution of the impasse.
Best Wishes,
a..1

It in no mystery Jesus saw himself seperate from God but one in purpose. He constantly glorified God.....(in prayer and in acknowledgement).....

The only time you see Jesus as God is when Paul steps on the seen. He never in his life met Jesus. He never talked to him. He heard a voice in his mind on the road but the men that were with him didn't hear the voice..... After that incident Christianity is born.

There has been no indication (from Jesus) that he was God, viewed himself as God or was equal to God). The OP can believe all he wants that we won...but basically it's all in his mind. It was the word of men that deified Jesus.....Not Jesus' words.

We are at an impass because he says tomato and I say tomaato he says potato and I say potaato...so let's call the whole thing off....

 

[lew0049]

Although I doubt anybody's mind will change on the issue, here are a few things to consider:

First, as far as the gospels are concerned, I don't understand how some of you only refer and believe the quotes from Jesus, then to utterly disregard the other scriptures. Although I agree that the verses from Jesus are incredibly important (and am convinced these to be the words from Jesus), it makes no sense to then discount the other scripture from the gospel writers. Unless you are to believe that the words contained in the Bible are the only words that Jesus spoke, then the gospel writers DID have an understanding of Jesus and who he was. Yes, I know that the true writers were not direct witnesses to all of the events contained in the gospels, but to believe that they just decided to portray Jesus as God seems quite absurd.

Second, here are some important scriptures (although these might have already been posted):

God and Jesus were the Word - this doesn't say that both contained the Word. Also, John 1:14 says it was made flesh - not that the Word was contained in someone who was flesh.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14


"[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5
It doesn't say that someone who is given authority by God or has the spirit of God in him, it says God only can forgive sins.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

Only worship God:
Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18

And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6 And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

God and Jesus reveal themselves as "I am"
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am</I>. John 8:58

"Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us...

[SIZE=+2]"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]This doesnt't say that the spirit of God is with us, it says that God is with us.
[/SIZE]

 

[Popeyesays]

What knowledge did Paul have of Jesus' teachings? Paul was never in the presence of Jesus, ever. So there is the most prolific writer in the New Testament of doubtful provanance. To take Paul for more than "good advice" is not supported by reality.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lew0049]

What knowledge did Paul have of Jesus' teachings? Paul was never in the presence of Jesus, ever. So there is the most prolific writer in the New Testament of doubtful provanance. To take Paul for more than "good advice" is not supported by reality.

Regards,
Scott

After (Saul) Paul saw the light and Jesus spoke to him, he converted from being a persecutor of both Jesus and those that spoke about Him, to being a follower. It was during this time that he was close companions w/ Mark and Barnabas (I believe Peter as well). Obviously this is where some of his knowledge comes from.

Well, I don't understand how you can discredit the writtings of Paul because he was never physically in the presence of Jesus, yet believe that Baha is full of wisdom and correct even though he was never in the presence of Jesus. Along those lines, one could claim that Paul was a true prophet from God as well. That is the only reality that I see Scott - and I would rather trust the words of someone who, more than likely, was the author of the earliest books of the NT - and was close companions with people that were followers of Jesus.

 

[Popeyesays]

After (Saul) Paul saw the light and Jesus spoke to him, he converted from being a persecutor of both Jesus and those that spoke about Him, to being a follower. It was during this time that he was close companions w/ Mark and Barnabas (I believe Peter as well). Obviously this is where some of his knowledge comes from.

Not with Peter, since they hardly ever met. The personal transformation of Saul is a remarkable event, but it is just ONE among many personal transformations that belief in Christ brought to individuals. It is not revelatory in the sense of a "message for all".

The only authority passed by Jesus was a hazy reference to james and to Peter. Paul was neither of those individuals and james appears to have been an enemy of Paul's.

Well, I don't understand how you can discredit the writtings of Paul because he was never physically in the presence of Jesus, yet believe that Baha is full of wisdom and correct even though he was never in the presence of Jesus. Along those lines, one could claim that Paul was a true prophet from God as well. That is the only reality that I see Scott - and I would rather trust the words of someone who, more than likely, was the author of the earliest books of the NT - and was close companions with people that were followers of Jesus.

I believe Baha`u'llah lived in the same state of consciousness that Jesus lived. In other words Jesus was a Dvine Messenger illuminated by the Spirit of God and baha`u'llah was exactly the same.

"To them that are endowed with understanding, it is clear and manifest that, when the fire of the love of Jesus consumed the veils of Jewish limitations, and His authority was made apparent and partially enforced, He, the Revealer of the unseen Beauty, addressing one day His disciples, referred unto His passing, and, kindling in their hearts the fire of bereavement, said unto them: "I go away and come again unto you." And in another place He said: "I go and another will come, Who will tell you all that I have not told you, and will fulfil all that I have said." Both these sayings have but one meaning, were ye to ponder upon the Manifestations of the Unity of God with Divine insight."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 21)

So, you see, to Baha'i's the voice of Baha`u'llah IS the Voice of Jesus.

Regards,
Scott