Ah good; a fellow soul mate.:bow:
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Ah good; a fellow soul mate.:bow:
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity, where in the Bible does it say we had lives before this one?
Regards,
Scott
Muffled
Jesus in me
There is a reincarnation thread on Biblical Debates. You should know because I think you left a message on it. Maybe you just for got that it was there.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
A lot of people have forgotten it, it isn't on the first couple pages of threads, perhpas you could find it and either quote it or bump it up the page?
Regards,
Scott
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I'd like to take a look at that thread as well to see how it relates to the bible. I'm not particularly aware of any instance in the scripture that deal with reincarnation.
I always viewed instances such as Lazarus rising and and the supposed ressurection of Jesus as (reanimation or resuscitation). But maybe I'm getting off topic because I haven't read that thread.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Evidently you didn't read the OP because there was one listed there.
Here is one where Jesus said He was the Son of God:
John 9:35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and finding him, he said, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and he it is that speaketh with thee.
Since there is only one God the Son of God must be God also.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Ahhhhh, but a son of God will never be the same as God. You've failed to be able to find one verse where Jesus says I'm God.
There is so much evidence from the mouth of Jesus that shows he is not God nor God in the flesh that it is amazing you can't see it.
Jesus, (BEFORE), coming to earth tells us he had his own will, he had glory (WITH) God before the world existed, he was taught by God, he was sent by God to earth, he was commanded by God as to what he should say to the people, he prayed to God and when he was done with his mission he informed God that thy will is done........
(THAT THY WILL BE DONE)....So does God now have two wills?
Jesus in heaven and on earth was a servent of God sent to do God's will.
I don't care what bible you use....give me one clear verse that shows Jesus saying...I am God...worship me....
This is incorrect and Jesus himself does not agree with the opinions of men.
Mark 13:32
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
John 14:28
You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Where does he say I am God? On the contrary.....He's going to his father, our father, God......and he knew that God was greater than he was.
and a little later he said this that seals the deal........
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Can you tell us, if he is God...who was he ascending to?
Muffled
Jesus in me
You don't have evidence, you have human reasoning which is always flawed and it can't negate the direct sttement by Jesus that He is God as listed in the OP.
I see no less "human reasoning" in the original post than in that one. I definitely don't see a clear, direct statement from Jesus saying that He is God.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"
Originally Posted by Muffled
Since there is only one God the Son of God must be God also."
TO make this as concise as possible and parse it makes one ignore an internal contraediction.
"Since there is one God, there must be two."
Regards,
Scott
Originally Posted by Muffled
Since there is only one God the Son of God must be God also."
TO make this as concise as possible and parse it makes one ignore an internal contraediction.
"Since there is one God, there must be two."
Regards,
Scott
logician
Well-Known Member
Actually, for any Jew to claim he was god was blasphemy.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And yet you have avoided the two questions I asked.
It is you who do not have evidence for your claims. Your assertions have been refuted by me using the words of jesus. All that you have presented were vague statements that if you examine them from the original contex had nothing to do with Jesus being God.
I told you Jesus was not God and showed you, in HIS OWN WORDS....him proving he wasn't..... and then you tried to follow that by listing the conjeture of men...the ones who never met him...seen him or knew him.
He was not God because he said he wasn't. I can drudge up more qutoes by Jesus to show you this but you will dismiss them and offer your opinion. The opinions of men aren't needed here.
If you have found direct evidence in the four gospels where Jesus says....I'm God......worship me..... then you should be able to list the Book, Chapter and verse. If you can't produce a statement recorded by Jesus saying this then it is YOU with the flawed reasoning....
Muffled
Jesus in me
"
Originally Posted by Muffled
Since there is only one God the Son of God must be God also."
TO make this as concise as possible and parse it makes one ignore an internal contraediction.
"Since there is one God, there must be two."
Regards,
Scott
This is specious reasoning at best. One God can never mean two Gods. Let me spell this out for you. Jesus and Jehovah are not two Gods but one God with two different names. When Jesus says that He is Jehovah, He is making that statement that He is God.
I am not sure what you mean by this but if I explain more fully perhaps it will help. The Quar'an states that God doesn't have sons and that is true from a human perpective as to God producing progeny the way people do. When Jesus calls himself the son of God He is not referring to a claim of being progeny. The question then becomes what does it mean to be "of God?" It means that God has produced Jesus from Himself. However since God is one and can't break off a piece of Himself to be in Jesus, then Jesus must be God.
Muffled
Jesus in me
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jehovah)
Jehovah is the name God gave Himself and Jesus has equated himself to the name of God.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
That's a misquote.
John 8:58 says "I am." Jehovah does not mean, "I AM". That's only an assumption on your part and a misguided assumption at that.
Regards,
Scott
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I have no Idea what bible you're reading from but all of the ones I have don't contain the word Jah in them. Are you reading from a New World Translation version of the bible?
Again, read the chapter in context instead of picking verses that suit your theory. The chapter has nothing to do with Jesus being God.
8:12 Then spake Yeshua again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
8:14 Yeshua answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Yeshua answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
8:20 These words spake Yeshua in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
8:21 Then said Yeshua again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Yeshua saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
8:28 Then said Yeshua unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
8:31 Then said Yeshua to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
8:34 Yeshua answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
8:38 I speak that which I have seen (with) my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Yeshua saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
8:42 Yeshua said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came (from God); neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
8:49 Yeshua answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
8:54 Yeshua answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
8:58 Yeshua said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Yeshua hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
This is it broken down for you. Him stating "I am"....Is true because he did exist before Abraham.
See next post.....
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
PART 2
John.
17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Who is Jesus talking to in this verse if he is God in the flesh? There would be NO need for such nonsense. Where was God if Jesus is on earth glorifying him. He knew what he was supposed to do before he came here. His mission was given to him in heaven by God. What are you saying, God broke off a piece of himself and became a second god which he sent to earth in the flesh of a man??? See what the trinity has done to you. All logic is out the window with that concept that has been created by men. It causes you to blindly except a falsehood.
17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
This answers John 8:58 and it is from the lips of Yeshua himself. It's a prayer to God and an acknowledgment that he exited before Abraham. Throughout chapter 8 he is glorifying God. (He said it not me)....He said he came forth from God with a message that God taught him and commanded of him what he should say. (He said it not me)....that he came not of his own will but God sent him....
Can you imagine?.....A God with two wills???...(He said it I didn't)... and yet you persist to pull out vague statements that prove nothing other than you are completely off the mark. Chapter 8, and yes all the way up to 8:58, Yeshua is expressing the power given to him by God, stating his purpose for being here and glorifying God in the process..... I've listed them all above. Show me where he says I'm God worship me.
On the contrary, (he said it not me), Glory and honour was to be given to God because he sought not his own glory....
I stand firm in my claim that Jesus is not God. I have refuted your claims that he is. I did it by Yeshua's own admission.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Jehovah is best translated "I am the one who is". "I am" is just a shortened form of the name. That shortened form of the name is used throughout scripture not something that I invented.
The name indicates the pre-existence to creation that would identify God as being different from everyone else. We can never say "I am" in relation to time because there is a time when we were not. Jesus can say "I am" in relation to time because He is also pre-existing. Since pre-existence is a quality that only belongs to God, Jesus is God in the flesh.
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is another verse where Jesus equates himself with The Father. I don't mind you presenting verses if you have something to say about them. And multiple verses show a context but what do you have to say about that context?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
"what do I have to say about this?.....
Uhhhh....you're taking it out of context!
You can't be commanded by God if you are God. How can God command himself? It's impossible
You can't be taught by God if you are God. How can God be taught? It's impossible. If God has to be taught then God is not all knowing.
You can't pray to God if you are God. How can God pray to himself? It's impossible. If God prays then he isn't God he is a "god".....
The words of Jesus are a basic fundemental in logic. He was in heaven with his own will but he was a servent who did the wll of God. He tells us he was taught by God. He tells us that the words he spoke were not his but he was commanded by God as to what he should say.
After he came here and glorfied the one that "sent" him he prays and tells God that thy will is done..... Not his will but the task that God gave him to do has been completed. If Yeshua is God then he would never make such a statement.
He says in John 20:17..."My father and your father....MY GOD and your God"...... These are basic understandings in logic. If he refers to God as his God then there is no way that he (Yeshua) is God.
The reason why the world of christianity can not produce one statement from the gospels that Jesus said he was God or Worship me is because he never said it.
I would hope by now you'd put away that king James Version and use a RSV bible. I use it. Your christian bretheren back this version. Let us see where you went wrong singling out 8:19....refer the the verse before it where he shows the he and God are seperate.
John 8:18
I testify on my own behalf, and the Father who sent me testifies on my behalf.
He never claimed equality with God.
Let's take another step back to see what he says about how they are seperate.
John 8:16
Yet even if I do judge, my judgement is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.
Look at that. Simple and clear. Straight to the point. Not alone means that he is seperate. He is justified in his judgement because he and God are one in purpose. Can you not see that? I am not even a scholar and it is, as it says under my avatar, "Common Sense" (Logic).....
Let's go a little forward and here's what Jesus says...
John
28: So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he (Please note ere he does not mean God. He means The Messiah), and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.
29: And the one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him.’
Can you see that? 28 says "I speak the things as the father (God) instructed me. We know that he (Yeshua) is not his own father. That doesn't make any sense and it is contrary to what he said.
Look at 29. Can you see they are one in purpose there as well? The one (God) that sent him has never left him. He was was the "word" of God here on earth. He was here to relay a message to a lost and misguided people. We know that he was with him..in spirit....Yeshua was given power from God to be able to do the things he did.
Matthew 3:16 - 17
16: And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
17:And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, the Beloved,* with whom I am well pleased.’
Look at that. The power of God decending upon Yeshua.