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Did Jesus say he was God???

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
so Christ's spiritual existence does not predate a physical incarnation

Of course it does. The SPirit of God, comes from God and it has always come from God even before Creation.

Christ is the Spirit of God made manifest for all to see. That SPirit long pre-dated Jesus of Nazareth.

I would stipulate of course, that Jesus is not the only vessel that has manifested God to man. Abraham was the Spirit of God. So was Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammed, the Bab and Baha`u'llah. Each came to mankind as the Spirit of God--different places, times, physical shells--but the same spirit.

Regards,
Scott
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
Denying the insistance is not a validation of your point merely a coy side step. I am begging an answer to the question and discussing a new concept (your perspective) with you. This is the first time I have heard the concept that Christ's spiritual existence is one seperate from that of the creator! I do wonder where this teaching comes from as the gospels only shed light on Christ's physical incarnation and spiritual reincarnation.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
I was raised Christian and was Christian til I was 24. Then I found the Baha`i Faith and became Baha`i. I turned 60 last July.

Baha`i's believe that all the Major Religions come from the same Source, are revealed by the will of the same God.

If you want some basic concepts on the faith try The Bahá'ís . It will give you some basic information, well organized and presented.

Regards,
Scott
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
Agree so present me with the information that states in Christ's original spiritual state he held a different existence from the creator.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
God's desire to Create was His alone. When God willed Creation that desire was given flesh, and from that flesh came Christ. When God said: BE! Jesus was, but not before.

Does that clarify?

Please be aware that when considering the nature of God we are all reaching into the hat and pulling out wild hares. We have no way of KNOWING God's Essence, that's why God, desiring to be known created Christ.

Regards,
Scott

Regards,
Scott
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
God was unknown predating the physical incarnation of Christ? He was known to us from the beginning in the Garden. As to his conciousness one can rationalize that if Christ returned in spirit to the same place where God dwells that is also the place from whence he came. If he originated as part of the source does this not lead one to believe he was part of the conciousness that said let there be
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The garden is an allegory. It's not literal. It's a story to make a point.

We instinctively "know" there is a God, but God is beyond our comprehension. A painting cannot know the essence of he who painted it, nor can a church understand he who built it.

Actually the Spirit is always with God, it does not need to lower itself and raise itself. It is always with us and always with God.

He was not PART of the Source, He was the instrument of the Source.

Regards,
Scott
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Where is this found that the garden is not a real place?

You are a familiar with a parable, right? A story which is outwardly simple, but inwardly represents much more complex truths is a parable. An allegory performs the same kind of function--like Aesop's Fables.

Abdu'l Baha explains ONE meaning for the story and leave it up to us to find other meanings and look at all those meanings to understand it more clearly.

"Question. -- What is the truth of the story of Adam, and His eating of the fruit of the tree?

Answer. -- In the Bible it is written that God put Adam in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and take care of it, and said to Him: "Eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of good and evil, for if You eat of that, You will die."[1] Then it is said that God caused Adam to sleep, and He took one of His ribs and created woman in order that she might be His companion. After that it is said the serpent induced the woman to eat of the tree, saying: "God has forbidden you to eat of the tree in order that your eyes may not be opened, and that you may not know good from evil."[2] Then Eve ate from the tree and gave unto Adam, Who also ate; their eyes were opened, they found themselves naked, and they hid their bodies with leaves. In consequence of this act they received the reproaches of God. God said to Adam: "Hast Thou eaten of the forbidden tree?" Adam answered: "Eve tempted Me, and I did eat." God then reproved Eve; Eve said: "The serpent tempted me, and I did eat." For this the serpent was cursed, and enmity was put between the serpent and Eve, and between their descendants. And God said: "The man is become like unto Us, knowing good and evil, and perhaps He will eat of the tree of life and live forever." So God guarded the tree of life.[3]
[1 Cf. Gen. 2:16-17.]
[2 Cf. Gen. 3:5.]
[3 Cf. Gen. 3:11-15,22.] 123

If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity -- that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system, strength and perfection.

We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.

We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.

The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.

The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary [1] was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity -- that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.
[1 Bahá'u'lláh.]

Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 122)

Regards,
Scott
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member

Hi, Muffled! :)

It would be interesting to see those scriptures.

One preliminary clarification:

While it's true that the Baha'i scriptures make clear that the Divine Messengers God sends are distince from God Himself, the statement that God doesn't incarnate Himself, while an official Baha'i teaching, isn't from our scriptures themselves.

Anyway, here's the statement I referred to:

"Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Baha'u'llah, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Baha'i belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God - both of which the utterances of Baha'u'llah emphatically repudiate and the fallacy of which they expose."

(The World Order of Baha'u'llah, pages 112-113)


Best regards, :)

Bruce
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
here it is from Baha`u'llah direct:

"XX. Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise." He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49)

Regards,
Scott
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Agree so present me with the information that states in Christ's original spiritual state he held a different existence from the creator.


John
3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure.

Surely God didn't send God to speak for God? He's telling us quite clearly that his god sent him and has allowed him to speak for him (his god) who has blessed him with the holy spirit.


John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

He came down from heaven, not by his own separate will in heave (before he became flesh), but by the will of his god that sent him. We know he was sent because he says it over and over and over. How can God have separate wills?

John 8:28
.........I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

He tells us his god taught him him what to say. Surely if he, Yeshua, is God he would not need to be taught.


John 17:14
I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.


God gave him the logos to give to the people. Well, the rest should be self explanatory.

John 20:17
........I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my god, and your god.

God has a god????


Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven.........

Surely if he is God (an omnipotent) he can not be "given" power

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Master of heaven and earth, because you hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Hopefully Yeshua has made his position clear that he is not God.
 

lew0049

CWebb
If God is the Creator, then before Creation was nothing but God. You can hem and haw, but what use is rationality if you won't use it?

Regards,
Scott




Question for you then Scott: you use the word "before" our creation as if the word "before" has meaning? You say that God created us, but this includes what we consider to be Time. Hence, the words before and after have no meaning because there simply was no "before" our creation.
-Chip
 

lew0049

CWebb
I'm merely saying that John 8:58 has absolutely NOTHING with Yeshua claiming to be God or invoking the name of God. The greek words "ego eimi" simply mean ("I existed"). Now put that in to the the verse and see what you get.

Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!




How would you know? You first said "To fully understand something such as this (with depth), it takes one trying to step outside of our world to fully grasp the true meaning." So for you to make such a claim you must have stepped outside of our world. Is this your position? You first reveal that we can't clearly understand God then you present your opinion as if you actually do understand God. This is double talk. You rationalize all you like. How can you take away or add to God? God can not become less than God. Yeshua does not reveal to us he is God. He does, however, reveal to us that his god sent him from heaven, not of his own will, but of God's will. He does reveal to us that God gave him a doctrine and commanded him what to say. He does reveal that his god sent him into the world with a task to complete. He does reveal to use that he wanted his god to restore glory upon him which he had WITH his god before the world was created. He does reveal to us that power was GIVEN to him IN HEAVEN (beyond our world) AND In Earth.......And he does reveal to us that he has a god..So he has revealed to us that he IS NOT God......

Understandable response as my wording was lacking - if you want to discount what I am saying then fine because its obvious that you are only reading the scripture in black and white, maybe its right, maybe its wrong. I don't understand what is so difficult to comprehend regarding my posts though because the response you gave does not rebute one thing I stated.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Question for you then Scott: you use the word "before" our creation as if the word "before" has meaning? You say that God created us, but this includes what we consider to be Time. Hence, the words before and after have no meaning because there simply was no "before" our creation.
-Chip

I think "time" is part of Creation, and God exists in an eternal NOW. But that is purely personal conjecture.

Quite simply, we have no idea at all what may have been before Creation, other than God did not Create Himself.

Regards,
Scott
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Understandable response as my wording was lacking - if you want to discount what I am saying then fine because its obvious that you are only reading the scripture in black and white

You chimed in on my response to Muffled. He laid out John 8:58 as he has done for quite some time now. I went with it to see how long he would stick to his assertion, as most christians have, that John 8:58 is Yeshua claiming to be God. The sad fact is, it isn't. I have said that Yeshua was saying he existed before Abraham and that is what he ment by that verse and Muffled was determined to say it isn't and kept wanting to cite it as a declaration of Yeshua and I am saying to him, you and ALL of christianity that John 8:58 IS NOT YESHUA CLAIMING TO BE GOD.....!

I defy anyone to disprove me because the Thayer Lexicon and Strongs Lexicon that a lot of scholars use to define the greek words given show that, that verse "LETERALLY" says Yeshua existed before Abraham and that is why they sought to stone Yeshua. I waited a long time to show him that. I honestly thougt he was going to do the work for me and realize he was wrong and we could move on but he persisted to throw that one out there so I had to deal with it and hopefully we can now put John 8:58 to bed because it is not what christians believe it is.


maybe its right

Which it is....

maybe its wrong.

And it's not....

I don't understand what is so difficult to comprehend regarding my posts though

I understood it fine.


because the response you gave does not rebute one thing I stated.

You admit your response was lacking in wording but that wasn't even the kicker. You stated that "To fully understand something such as this (with depth), it takes one trying to step outside of our world to fully grasp the true meaning."

My response is that it is difficult for you to prove that even you have an understanding considering you have not shown that you have performed the actions above to understand God.

Then you went on to say "God in the flesh would not have the same as God (outside of world, time, and having human temptations, qualities, etc..)" You can't have your cake and eat it too. If we mere mortals have not the ability to step outside of the world to understand God then how can you make the claim that;

1.) God is in the flesh? Does this mean you understand God?

2.) How can you demostrate to us your undestanding that God is outside of space and time?

See, understanding the scriptures is quite easy. Muffled tried to use John 8:58 and plenty of christians have said I don't understand the verse or the context but what usually silences that notion is when the definition of the words are shown to them. Why christians insist on using John 8:58 as a proof text I have no idea considering the evidence that it is not what they think it is. When I say it is clear and in black and white it is because that is the truth. If it wasn't so plain and in black and white as I have been arguing all along then I wouldn't have been able to prove it and I have proven it with little effort. All one had to do is pick up a lexicon or two or three.......
 

musharraf

New Member
hi friends i dont know from where i should start
if you people tell me what is your debate about this verse :before abraham i am .


 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
hi friends i dont know from where i should start​
if you people tell me what is your debate about this verse :before abraham i am .​

Well Muffled is the one who started all this. This trinitarian believes that Yeshua is God in the flesh. I contend that he isn't. You can skip to the fist post to see what he says. He said that he had "OVERWHELMING" proof that Yeshua is God. You will see a lot of commentary on this here because it has been ongoing for quite some time. Understand that he gave his view from a biblical point and not a quranic view point. So we have all tried to refrain from using any other scripture other than the bible.

Let's just get this one out of the way...Some christians are under the impression thast Yeshua "implicitly" stated he is God. Honestly I find the claims suspect. Most of the quotes given are followed by Yeshua say that his god "sent him". Also Some will try to use John 8:58 when Yeshua says "I am" to be taken as he meant he was God. They appear to be using it without understanding the context of the conversation. I addressed this a few post ago to Muffled and some one else. But you don't even have to go back that far in the book of Joh. Just deal with the "I am" statement and break it down with a lexicon and you will clearly see that Yeshua only stated he existed before Abraham.

That verse is not hard to understand. Most christians over think it and misunderstand what it means. Here's what it means.....

Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

Here it is lexicographically;

Strongs Greek Lexicon
ego
1473. ego eg-o' a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):--I, me.

eimi
1510. eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

Never let anyone tell you anymore that Yeshua claimed to be God, either implicitly or explicity, by using John 8:58.


Just bring your view of why you either believe or don't believe Yeshua to be God but be civil and curteous........
 

lew0049

CWebb
Dregod - I am simply saying that if you are going to read and analyze something such as scriptures, it seems logical to me that one must approach the subject from the correct perspective. I was simply saying that because God is from another world (obviously) then reading it in pure "black and white" would be wrong.
 

lew0049

CWebb
I think "time" is part of Creation, and God exists in an eternal NOW. But that is purely personal conjecture.

Quite simply, we have no idea at all what may have been before Creation, other than God did not Create Himself.

Regards,
Scott


In many instances in the Bible God changed Time - hence, when we think of something like "what was before the creation" this statement has no meaning. I use personal conjecture with much of my analysis because these are the attributes God gave mankind - to use logic and reason.
 
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