Did Jesus say he was God???

[logician]

"God is neither first nor last, He is pre-existent"

One can just as easily say matter and energy were pre-existant.

 

[Popeyesays]

"God is neither first nor last, He is pre-existent"

One can just as easily say matter and energy were pre-existant.

Why should anything at all exist? Once something exists and there are minds to wonder about that existence the can of worms is open.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant or why would they what to stone him? They wanted to stone him because in there minds, Jesus had blasphemed by stating his preexistence of Abraham which could have only been true if he were God.

Yeshua's pre-existence does not mean he is God. Pre-existence is not a prerequisite for being God.

You are correct in saying the statement means that (Before Abraham existed...Yeshua existed).

That part is true and can be confirmed by your scriopture in Yeshua's own words. Nowhere in 8:58 or any verse leading up to it do we find Yeshua saying he is God.....Not implicitly or explicitly.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Yeshua's pre-existence does not mean he is God. Pre-existence is not a prerequisite for being God.

You are correct in saying the statement means that (Before Abraham existed...Yeshua existed).

That part is true and can be confirmed by your scriopture in Yeshua's own words. Nowhere in 8:58 or any verse leading up to it do we find Yeshua saying he is God.....Not implicitly or explicitly.

Who do you think Jesus was?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Who do you think Jesus was?

I can't speculate as to his position in heaven amongst the other creations of his god....I don't think the scriptures give that information but the scripture clearly show he was not God....again, this is coming from Yeshua he was seperate from his god in heaven, on earth, and when he retuned to heaven......The four gospels say it and the book of revelation shows that the ascended Yeshua has a god.......John, in that very book, shows that The one on the throne is God whom all are prasing but the Lamb enters and is the one worthy of opening the seven seals.....Not sure why people keep saying Yeshua is God when right there in the four gospels he says it was his god that sent him and then right there in the last book he says he has a god.......

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I can't speculate as to his position in heaven amongst the other creations of his god....I don't think the scriptures give that information but the scripture clearly show he was not God....again, this is coming from Yeshua he was seperate from his god in heaven, on earth, and when he retuned to heaven......The four gospels say it and the book of revelation shows that the ascended Yeshua has a god.......John, in that very book, shows that The one on the throne is God whom all are prasing but the Lamb enters and is the one worthy of opening the seven seals.....Not sure why people keep saying Yeshua is God when right there in the four gospels he says it was his god that sent him and then right there in the last book he says he has a god.......

What do you think his purpose was here on earth?

 

[Popeyesays]

What do you think his purpose was here on earth?

Hindus usually call Him an avatar of the Godhead. Baha`i's call Him a Manifestation of God. He Revealed the word

He bore a Book: The Gospel.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Hindus usually call Him an avatar of the Godhead. Baha`i's call Him a Manifestation of God. He Revealed the word

He bore a Book: The Gospel.

Regards,
Scott

What is a Manifestation of God?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What do you think his purpose was here on earth?

As he indicated in the gospels...he was given a task from his god to bring the ("word") to the people.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

As he indicated in the gospels...he was given a task from his god to bring the ("word") to the people.

What have you learned from the Gospels?

What are your favorite passages?

 

[Popeyesays]

What is a Manifestation of God?

From Wikipedia article:
"
[edit] Definition

Bahá'ís believe in a single, imperishable God, the creator of all things, including all the creatures and forces in the universe.[1] Though inaccessible directly, God is nevertheless seen as conscious of his creation, with a mind, will and purpose. Bahá'ís believe that God expresses this will at all times and in many ways, including through a series of divine messengers referred to as Manifestations of God or sometimes divine educators.[2] In expressing God's intent, these Manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world. Thus they are seen as an intermediary between God and humanity.[3]
The Manifestations of God are not seen as an incarnation of God, but they are also not seen as an ordinary mortal. Instead, the Bahá'í concept of the Manifestation of God emphasizes simultaneously the humanity of that intermediary and the divinity in the way they show forth the will, knowledge and attributes of God; thus they have both human and divine stations. Among other religions, this view most closely resembles the Christian view of Christ. The Manifestations of God act as a pure mirror (see below) that reflect the attributes of God onto this material world.[3]
According to `Abdu'l-Bahá, the divine Manifestations of God must be distinguished above any other person in every aspect and qualification, in order that they can effectively train and educate people.[4] In another place he says, "the essential requirement and qualification of Prophethood is the training and guidance of the people."[5]
In essence, the Manifestations of God are seen as Divine Educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing His will. In expressing God's intent, these Manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world and each one brings a book, and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.
Bahá'u'lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as himself, were included in this definition. Thus religious history is interpreted as a series of dispensations, where each Manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed."

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jeremy Mason]

From Wikipedia article:
"
[edit] Definition

Bahá'ís believe in a single, imperishable God, the creator of all things, including all the creatures and forces in the universe.[1] Though inaccessible directly, God is nevertheless seen as conscious of his creation, with a mind, will and purpose. Bahá'ís believe that God expresses this will at all times and in many ways, including through a series of divine messengers referred to as Manifestations of God or sometimes divine educators.[2] In expressing God's intent, these Manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world. Thus they are seen as an intermediary between God and humanity.[3]
The Manifestations of God are not seen as an incarnation of God, but they are also not seen as an ordinary mortal. Instead, the Bahá'í concept of the Manifestation of God emphasizes simultaneously the humanity of that intermediary and the divinity in the way they show forth the will, knowledge and attributes of God; thus they have both human and divine stations. Among other religions, this view most closely resembles the Christian view of Christ. The Manifestations of God act as a pure mirror (see below) that reflect the attributes of God onto this material world.[3]
According to `Abdu'l-Bahá, the divine Manifestations of God must be distinguished above any other person in every aspect and qualification, in order that they can effectively train and educate people.[4] In another place he says, "the essential requirement and qualification of Prophethood is the training and guidance of the people."[5]
In essence, the Manifestations of God are seen as Divine Educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing His will. In expressing God's intent, these Manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world and each one brings a book, and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.
Bahá'u'lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as himself, were included in this definition. Thus religious history is interpreted as a series of dispensations, where each Manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed."

Regards,
Scott

Thanks for sharing that with me.

 

[lew0049]

If Jesus claimed to be God, than he was high on more than just the holy spirit. How can a man be God? More importantly, how can a man(Jesus) who claimed to have a God in the Book of John, be God Almighty? Can God have a God? Does any of this ultimately matter? Are we not in the same position that we were in 2,000+ years ago before Jesus was born? Did anything really change? And if nothing did really change and we are all still hanging on to ideas and opinions, then what does that say about your God and his power? From my vantage point, not a whole lot.

Last time I checked, mankind (well atleast most) are given a sense of logic and reason. We are given free will to that enables us to analyze information. What do you think should have changed? That we have undeniable proof of "my" God. If these are your arguments against "my" God then you might want to self-analyze you own questions a little more before you pose questions... simply meaning what do you think should have happened after Jesus came, for the benefit of mankind?

 

[baybars]

Many people here are quoting passages from the bible. I hope most know that
the bible as we know it now has been edited over and over by the roman church,
and then again when it became the catholic church.Seems that the original scriptures
of the NT,well actually not the original, but those that were translated into greek
around 150 200 AD had little in common with what's available currently.
Whole versus were added to the book of Mathews ,that were not seen in the earlier versions.
The problem i have with organized religion is they have an agenda, and that is to stay in power
How is it that the two main Christian holidays coincide with ancient pagan holidays? Easter close to the spring equinox, Christmas, the winter solstice. If I
remember correctly, Christians celebrated the birth of Jesus around april for
300 years,and then was moved to dec 25. And the church that's responsible for the
bible we have today..yes that includes the king james version, is the church
that has the bloodiest history of any church that ever existed bar none. I wouldn't
put my trust in a book on faith and love,edited by a church that has committed
countless atrocities for over 1500 years.
These organizations rely on your blind faith,cause if you really look at what's
written with an open mind,the NT does not make sense,it is a myriad of contradictions,and can be interpreted many different ways, as this thread has shown. I believe Jesus was a great man, His teachings are invaluable,and that God
did enter His body spiritually and gave Him the power to heal and gave Him the
wisdom to preach His word.
Also there were other prophets which dedicated their lives spread the philosophy
of peace and love as Jesus did.
On a side note, if any has studied Egyptian mythology and their ancient history, you'll find the first resurrection story,and the 1st culture that believed in a life after death. A very similar story to Jonah and the whale,and Horus rising from the dead after he was stoned to death. Even some names sounded biblical ,Atum and
israel, I could go on and on with these similarities. Egyptologists believe that the Hebrews when in Egypt for many years,adopted egyptian mythology, and created a religion from it.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Many people here are quoting passages from the bible. I hope most know that
the bible as we know it now has been edited over and over by the roman church,
and then again when it became the catholic church.Seems that the original scriptures
of the NT,well actually not the original, but those that were translated into greek
around 150 200 AD had little in common with what's available currently.
Whole versus were added to the book of Mathews ,that were not seen in the earlier versions.
The problem i have with organized religion is they have an agenda, and that is to stay in power
How is it that the two main Christian holidays coincide with ancient pagan holidays? Easter close to the spring equinox, Christmas, the winter solstice. If I
remember correctly, Christians celebrated the birth of Jesus around april for
300 years,and then was moved to dec 25. And the church that's responsible for the
bible we have today..yes that includes the king james version, is the church
that has the bloodiest history of any church that ever existed bar none. I wouldn't
put my trust in a book on faith and love,edited by a church that has committed
countless atrocities for over 1500 years.
These organizations rely on your blind faith,cause if you really look at what's
written with an open mind,the NT does not make sense,it is a myriad of contradictions,and can be interpreted many different ways, as this thread has shown. I believe Jesus was a great man, His teachings are invaluable,and that God
did enter His body spiritually and gave Him the power to heal and gave Him the
wisdom to preach His word.
Also there were other prophets which dedicated their lives spread the philosophy
of peace and love as Jesus did.
On a side note, if any has studied Egyptian mythology and their ancient history, you'll find the first resurrection story,and the 1st culture that believed in a life after death. A very similar story to Jonah and the whale,and Horus rising from the dead after he was stoned to death. Even some names sounded biblical ,Atum and
israel, I could go on and on with these similarities. Egyptologists believe that the Hebrews when in Egypt for many years,adopted egyptian mythology, and created a religion from it.

First let me say welcome to the forum.

I do agree with alot of the things you said. What we must keep in mind here is that the people, especially christians, who are quoting from the bible consider it to be the word of God and consider the book to be holy scripture. So they, no doubt, believe in the book. I approach certain biblical topics as if the person beginning the discussion truly believe what they are reading and would not associate their book with any other cultural dogma or mythology. When it comes to the current topic, to them, it doesn't matter if Yeshua and Mary resemble any other historical mother and child figure, pagan rituals and holidays. Some believe in the literal and/or historical Yeshua. What they are attempting to do here is answer the current question using their scripture. The problem is that their scripture does not say implicitly or explicitly say what they say it does. I personally used multiple versions of the bible for research and I do try to use the ones that go back to the earliest of manuscripts. Unfortunately, as I have said dozens of responses ago, this thread will most likely keep going until people just truly stop being interested in it. The question, however, may never be answered and agreed upon by everyone here.

 

[Muffled]

If Jesus did not become the living soul of God until God breathed His own spirit into His body, then what was Jesus' status prior to His incarnation? Are you saying He had no spirit of His own and needed His Father's spirit to become who He was?

Yes. I am saying what Jesus said: that He and the Father are one (spirit) as Eph 4:4 also states.

 

[Muffled]

now i want you to read each one again and actually show where jesus says he is God , saying the father does not denote 100% that thats speaking of God and jesus sayingthat God is Good and hes a good shepard still no connection,if the prophecy in the book of Isa. was about jesus then his name would be emmanuel, the old reads as such but the new reads (right after showing you that it reads emmanuel )"and he called his name jesus" and being called God does not mean that you are God, and saying I am the light,i am the way,i am the bread,i am the door,i am the reserrection and the vine still does not say that I am God, the high priest asked him by the living God, TEll us are you the son of living God and jesus answered him you say i am, perfect time for him to add in i am the son of God amongst all those i am's or when plainly asked still no to the point answer or statement saying "I am the son of God or that he is God, these are all overwhelming assumptions that when truly examined one has to agree that all these instances theres room for questioning and even more for doubt, even jesus said it himself if any man do his will , he will know if he speaks of God or himself ,even that verse lets you know that he is not God and that theres a chance that he is speaking of himself in which case one would have to ask if he were speaking of himself theres a chance hes not with God or for God and if hes for himself (mmmm.... wonder who fits that description) think old, what was and still is i might add Gods will ?its the Law, please read psalm 1:1-6 and psalm 119 all ,do these words sound as if they have an experation date if you think that then read malachi chapters 3 & 4 all, see where it reads God saying :I change not and last but not least remember ye the law of moses with the statutes and judgements , REMEMBER the LAW , why such a reminder right before this major change think .
christians are under grace not under the Laws of God they pretend that they follow the ten commandments, but do they the first four commandments are totally ignored ,did God or jesus say I am the Lord thy God that brought you out of the land of egypt, out of the house of bondage. i believe the verse starts out with and God spake all these words, next thou shalt make no graven image, lets just look around lets say um your house how many pictures or little figurines (idols) do you see and even if you dont bow down to it or them like millions do, your idol is set up in your heart< because if someone can show you an image and you at the least say thats supposed to be jesus the idol of the world is within,and if you read on in Ex. 20: 5 & 6 you will without a doubt read that God will show mercy unto thousands of generations that loves him and keeps his commandments, ( did God give the law just to take it back one day?, see how when God speaks in this book theres no mistaken or possible room for doubt, I am GOD , My commandments) next theres the name in vain, in this case it means to make void , how many of you have even thought to ask how come jesus speaks of his fathers name, even reveals it to the disciples but not once is spoken by him, even the name jehovah( not the name either) not written in the gospels, what is his fathers name? and last but not least< remember the sabbath day, to keep it Holy six days to work one to rest. where is your day of rest even if you say sunday is it thats not the seventh day of the week matt. 28:1 reads that at the end of the sabbath toward the first day of the week<the two maryswent to the sepulchre, so you are not observing Gods sabbath even if you just had the day wrong you still dont rest its another day of labor and folly cooking, laundry even leaving the house is wrong its supposed to be a day of meditation and reflection and most important REST . if you dont think its important just consider this ,it finished creation. these 4 are not even listed in the new test. yet most of you just learned that still this question has not been answered difinitively if anything it should have shadows of at least a double take by those who are not closed minded or think that if they doubt in any way they will go to hell but remember even jesus says you can blaspheme the name of the son of man and be forgiven but not the Holy spirit( by the way is he the son of God or the son of man? God is not the author of confusion) now if you can with knowledge explain these things away someone anyone hit me email pm whatever school of show and prove any verse i mentioned that you dont know ask. now heres my question of the ages ,this, i dont even think any of you have even seen or gave a second thought to ,who is the destroyer of the gentiles mentioned in jer.4:7 riddle me that? anyone!

It is refreshing to read your post and it illustrates how Dirty Penguin can say that I gave a list of evidence not a list of proofs. I don't have time to get to everything today but I hope to address your concerns over time.

What kind of connection were you looking for? Jesus says that only God is good and God says that, through Isaiah as well. If Jesus really believes that, then how can He call Himself good unless He believes that He is God? Also in the story of the woman caught in adultery He says "let Him who is without sin cast the first stone." Everyone left but Jesus who could have cast the stone but chose to forgive instead. To be without sin one must be good and again Jesus is qualifying himself that way.

Actually Jesus is named Jesus in the prophecy of Zechariah.

There are many names for Jesus in the prophecies but that does not necessarily mean that those names will actually be the one attributed to Him by Mary. Rather the names describe the attributes of Jesus ie. Immanuel means God with us, which is exactly what Jesus is.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes. I am saying what Jesus said: that He and the Father are one (spirit) as Eph 4:4 also states.

:no:

That is not Yeshua speaking in that (letter).

 

[Buttons*]

Yeshua never wrote anything himself, so to suggest we actually have his words accurately written by men who never knew him, is, well, pretty fanciful O_O

 

[Popeyesays]

Given that the Gospel of Thomas matches the words of Jesus so closely from the other Gospels, I thin we can trust oral tradition as far what quantitaivley small amount of the words of jesus go.

Regards,
Scott