Did Jesus say he was God???

[logician]

"There is no other conclusion to be drawn form the scriptures than to conclude that Jesus was concurrently....both man and God. And in fact, history actual speaks for the physical evidence of such, for indeed if this were a false religion and not found to be real and favorable in the sight of God, pray tell how could this faith have grown from slightly over a dozen people to include the Messiah Himself to engulf 1/3 of the worlds total population? It would have come to nothing and made non-effect if it did not hold the blessings and promises of God Almighty, who indeed promised not to have His words corrupted -- Ps. 12:6-7."

The fact that the myth was perpetuated effectively has nothing to with the fact that it is still a myth.

 

[roli]

While I agree with you about the Divinity of Jesus.

To use Bible quotes to prove it, requires the reader to accept the Truth of the Bible.

This belief does not always exist.

I am very selective in my reading of the Bible and get more from the colour and the teachings of the Bible than the exactness of the translation or the actual words.

Jesus teachings were so new in the world, as compared to the Jewish norm, that their teaching and truth shine through.

Contrary wise some of Paul's teachings are so much like the teachings of a Jew of his time, that although moral issues are handled well, they often show little of the new reality that Jesus brought us.

Jesus speaks directly to our heart and soul.

It's interesting how the world,skeptics and the like references their personal information,history, details, facts etc from books that were written before Jesus and quite often hold very close to the reliability of these books of antiquity as fact and relaiable,yet the bible with not only it's thousands of transcripts which are still in extistence and which validate the authenticity of the sciriptures were also written within the first century of the events.
There are many aspects to look at before one should disprove the relaiability of scripture to validate Christ.
Not only is the bible the most widely circulated book in the world, it's truth are what govern life as we know it.

Just my personal opinion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not only is the bible the most widely circulated book in the world, it's truth are what govern life as we know it. Just my personal opinion.

... as opposed to fact.

 

[roli]

None of it is evidence of divinity. You cannot contain the ocean in a teacup, and God the Creator cannot be contained within all of Hisx Creation, much less the body of ONE human being.

The fact that Jesus was born of woman means He cannot have been God.

"The Father which sent me. . ." is just one more of dozens of opportunities Jesus took to keep Himself separate from God in the minds of His followers. At opportunity after opportunity Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man, not the Son of God.

My wife and I are one according to the Old Testament, that does not make my wife me, or me, my wife.

Jesus and God were one in purpose, one in Revelation (Jesus the mouthpiece, God Revealed Himself with). It can mean everything but "one and the same".

You prove your own assumption in your own lights and expect it to convince others? That's called "begging the question" or "Circular argument". It's not proof in any rational sense.

Regards.

Scott

This to is a mystery to the wise of this present world Scott, but to those who have the faith of a child and not the intellect of a greek philospher he chooses to reveal this mystery.

The Purpose of Parables are distinctly set for two groups of people, which we still have in our world today, those who believe by faith and those who must see to beleive, the question is ,which one are you.
(Mark 4:10-12; Luke 8:9, 10)
Matt 13:10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [fn1] should heal them.' [fn2]

16But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
The Parable of the Sower Explained
(Mark 4:13-20; Luke 8:11-15)
18"Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

Jesus was God in the flesh and regardless of what you or I believe, He claimed and was proven to be God in the flesh, that is to those who were open to have it revealed to them through his spirit.I don't think he is here to prove it empirically to the learned or wise,but solely by revelation through his Holy Spirit.
1Cr 1:17 -23For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudentWhere [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?.For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
That is why those in Jesus day plotted to kil him so many times, his claims, such as God in the flesh, I and my father are one
I believe our politcally correct ammoral and relative society today would hunt Jesus down and kill him sevenfold if they could especially if he spoke now what he spoke and claimed then.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jesus was God in the flesh and regardless of what you or I believe, He claimed and was proven ....

Proven? Bullpuckie!

 

[roli]

Proven? Bullpuckie!

That's reliable assurance !!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's reliable assurance !!

No - it's an accurate characterization.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus was God in the flesh and regardless of what you or I believe,

If that was the case then this thread would be moot and all would be in agreement. Obviously there is enough information in the scripture to contradict what you assert.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true god, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU have sent.

"YOU are the "ONLY" true "god"......and I (Yeshua) am the Messiah (Blessed ambassador who speaks on your behalf)...whom YOU have sent.

In order to be sent there must be a sender. In order to be given there must be a giver.

He claimed and was proven to be God in the flesh,

He claimed no such thing. There is nothing in either of the 4 gospels where Yeshua said he was God. It's incredible the claim you have made. Additionally there is nothing to suggest God came in the flesh of Yeshua. If there were proof it would have been presented.

That is why those in Jesus day plotted to kil him so many times, his claims, such as God in the flesh, I and my father are one

You spend a lot of time taking things out of context. Yeshua meant one in purpose. That is actually what that verse means when you examine the greek being used. But really, all you have to do is observe the same book of John .

John
17:21 That they all may be one; as YOU, Father, are in me, and I in YOU, that they also may be one in US: that the world may believe that YOU have SENT ME.

17:22 And the glory which YOU gave ME I have given them; that they may be one, EVEN as WE are one:

17:23 I in them, and YOU in ME, that THEY may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that YOU have SENT ME, and have loved THEM, as YOU have loved ME.

One in purpose but not one in the same.

And I will say this again because apparently it is true....that most christians don't even know their own bible.......

 

[crystalonyx]

It's interesting how the world,skeptics and the like references their personal information,history, details, facts etc from books that were written before Jesus and quite often hold very close to the reliability of these books of antiquity as fact and relaiable,yet the bible with not only it's thousands of transcripts which are still in extistence and which validate the authenticity of the sciriptures were also written within the first century of the events.
There are many aspects to look at before one should disprove the relaiability of scripture to validate Christ.
Not only is the bible the most widely circulated book in the world, it's truth are what govern life as we know it.

Just my personal opinion.

This is blantantly untrue.

 

[roli]

If that was the case then this thread would be moot and all would be in agreement. Obviously there is enough information in the scripture to contradict what you assert.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true god, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU have sent.

"YOU are the "ONLY" true "god"......and I (Yeshua) am the Messiah (Blessed ambassador who speaks on your behalf)...whom YOU have sent.

In order to be sent there must be a sender. In order to be given there must be a giver.




He claimed no such thing. There is nothing in either of the 4 gospels where Yeshua said he was God. It's incredible the claim you have made. Additionally there is nothing to suggest God came in the flesh of Yeshua. If there were proof it would have been presented.



You spend a lot of time taking things out of context. Yeshua meant one in purpose. That is actually what that verse means when you examine the greek being used. But really, all you have to do is observe the same book of John .

John
17:21 That they all may be one; as YOU, Father, are in me, and I in YOU, that they also may be one in US: that the world may believe that YOU have SENT ME.

17:22 And the glory which YOU gave ME I have given them; that they may be one, EVEN as WE are one:

17:23 I in them, and YOU in ME, that THEY may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that YOU have SENT ME, and have loved THEM, as YOU have loved ME.

One in purpose but not one in the same.

And I will say this again because apparently it is true....that most christians don't even know their own bible.......

You are entitled to your postion that they are only one in purpose, but maybe that is because you don't have an understanding of what it means to be in Christ.
I don't know if you have ever seen a branch from another tree grafted into a wild tree and watching them two becoming one and I might add more than in purpose .
They actually become one of the whole, taking on the very characteristics, identity, likeness, image of the tree itself, inseparable, truly one in multiple ways.
"In purpose" is a very vague conclusion and you can accept that limited position with Christ if you will.

But what Christ is in God we are in Christ and thus with God.
As a Christian being found in Christ as a vine in a tree, which takes that being spiritually born again, I have exclusive rights, inheirtitance,status, position,POWER, and that being seated with Christ in Heavenly places.
Christ had this with the Father before creation, but surrendered His psoition to become man, if you would read the rest of Col 2, you would see this.
I won't bother arguing with you but let me just conclude with Col.
Col 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You are entitled to your postion that they are only one in purpose, but maybe that is because you don't have an understanding of what it means to be in Christ.

Well the proof was right there. It's amazing how people tell you how you don't understand something that really isn't that hard to understand. There was no mystery in his statement.....and then he clarified it later in the same book of John. Not only did he mean one in purpose...when you examine the greek that was used by the writer of John it means exactly that.

I don't know if you have ever seen a branch from another tree grafted into a wild tree and watching them two becoming one and I might add more than in purpose .

And that proves what???

It is obvious there are TWO distinct and separate trees. The branch from one tree and the other tree receiving the graft. YOU as the sole controller are implementing the grafting process. This really wasn't a good analogy.

"In purpose" is a very vague conclusion and you can accept that limited position with Christ if you will.

It's not vague. If you think so then take it up with Yeshua and God. It was Yeshua that explained they were one in purpose. You just misunderstood what he said is all.

 

[Muffled]

If an apple falls from a tree and is allowed to gestate, pray tell what will it become? Jesus is God in the same manner in which you are your fathers son, thus among one of His titles we find that He is referred to as the "prince of peace", not social or political peace but "spiritual". Jesus being in the form of human indeed was much like the apple, he was limited by what he was, "human", the scriptures declare as much, he was not a divine being "playing" at being human, but indeed was human --l John 1:1-4. But, Jesus was the Word made flesh -- John 1:1-4, 10-14. But he was human, he experienced a normal human birth -- Matthew 1:18-25. At 8 days of age he was circumcised in the Jewish tradition -- Luke 2:21. And he grew as a human child -- Luke 2:40. He increased in wisdom and stature -- Luke 2:52. Jesus the man was not unlike other men in appearance -- Isaiah 53:1-3. He experienced normal human needs and desires, hunger -- Matthew 4:2, thirst -- John 19:28, exhaustion -- John 4:6, pain l Peter 3:18, John 18:1-34. He was made a little lower than the angels -- Hebrew 2:7. Jesus was tempted in all points, just as is every man -- Hebrew 4:15. The apostle wrote about the humanity of Jesus -- l Tim. 2:5, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

But, because Jesus was made human by design, this did not take away from his position of being considered and worshiped as God, his right by being the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father -- John chapter one. He was born of a virgin and conceived of the Holy Spirit -- Matthew 1:20. Writing of the Christ while in the flesh, the apostle Paul declared, "For in Him dwelleth the fullness of the "GODHEAD" bodily." -- Col. 2:9. When Jesus was born, He had the special title "SON" -- Hebrews 1:3-14. Hence He was worshiped by the angels -- Hebrews 1:6. And the scriptures clearly state that angels "are not" to worship mere mortal men -- Acts 10:25-26. Jesus acknowledged His "Sonship" -- John 10:29,36. The Jews' understood that Jesus was claiming to be "deity" because they considered it blasphemy, "because, that thou, being a man, makest thyself God -- John 10:33.

There is no other conclusion to be drawn form the scriptures than to conclude that Jesus was concurrently....both man and God. And in fact, history actual speaks for the physical evidence of such, for indeed if this were a false religion and not found to be real and favorable in the sight of God, pray tell how could this faith have grown from slightly over a dozen people to include the Messiah Himself to engulf 1/3 of the worlds total population? It would have come to nothing and made non-effect if it did not hold the blessings and promises of God Almighty, who indeed promised not to have His words corrupted -- Ps. 12:6-7.

Does anyone play at being human. I find myself in a human body with a human spirit not because I thought it would be fun but because the human body is the vehicle God has created to receive my spirit. How can you say that God is playing at being human when Jesus has expressed His purpose for His incarnation and it was not to have fun.
The reality remains. God has the appearance of humanity because of His incarnation but He doesn't have a human spirit so, he is not fully human. All the rest of us are human souls but Jesus is the God Soul.

This is a troubling verse for those who view the omni-presence of God to preclude it. However I have tried pointing out to them before that God is not separated into parts, He is one. In that context the verse makes more sense.

Thank you! This verse definitely adds to my list.

 

[Muffled]

"If an apple falls from a tree and is allowed to gestate, pray tell what will it become? "

It won't become the tree which dropped it. The question is not relevant both apples and apple trees are part of God's Creation. God is not part of Creation, He is the Creator.

Regards,
Scott

In this you are correct. The body of Jesus can't be equated with God because it is a creation. However God breathed a spirit into Adam and it became a living soul. In Jesus God breathed His own spirit into the body and it became the living soul of God.
you can call that a manifestation of God if you like but then we are just manifestations of our spirit as well. There is no loss of identity in incarnation. My spirit defines who I am and God's spirit defines who He is.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

In this you are correct. The body of Jesus can't be equated with God because it is a creation. However God breathed a spirit into Adam and it became a living soul. In Jesus God breathed His own spirit into the body and it became the living soul of God.
you can call that a manifestation of God if you like but then we are just manifestations of our spirit as well. There is no loss of identity in incarnation. My spirit defines who I am and God's spirit defines who He is.

Look, It was Yeshua who showed he existed in heaven and was separate from God. He showed this twice in your scripture.

John 6:38
For I (Yeshua) have come down from heaven, not to do My own (Separate) will, but the will of Him (My god) who sent me”

John 8:42................ I (Yeshua) proceeded and came forth from God; I (Yeshua) came not of my (Yeshua) own accord, but he (God) sent me”

Another KJV renders it like this;

"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

If he was in heaven before coming here then he had no "physical" body. If he says he came neither of himself but his god sent him then he is showing you that he himself is not God. He was sent by his god.

Your interpretation is that God and Yeshua are not separate nor do they have separate wills but Yeshua says they do so plainly in these two verses. Yeshua was in heaven separately from his god. His god sent him....

In order to be sent there must be a sender.

 

[J_R]

Is Jesus God in the flesh?

Simple.

If you believe Jesus is God in the flesh, then he is.

If you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh, then he is not.

 

[YmirGF]

So, from this thread, I think we can conclude that no one can conclusively prove that Jesus was or was not God.

Next topic.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So, from this thread, I think we can conclude that no one can conclusively prove that Jesus was or was not God.

Next topic.

I guess not........

I figured John 17:3 would have been sufficient but I suppose not.

No matter how much the scripture show Yeshua not to be God I guess we're gonna have to hear it from his lips......It would appear that interpretations run a muck here....

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true god, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU have sent.

"YOU are the "ONLY" true "god"......and I (Yeshua) am the Messiah (Blessed ambassador who speaks on your behalf)...whom YOU have sent.

I guess that's not good enough....or......

John 6:38
For I (Yeshua) have come down from heaven, not to do My own (Separate) will, but the will of Him (My god) who sent me”

John 8:42................ I (Yeshua) proceeded and came forth from God; I (Yeshua) came not of my (Yeshua) own accord, but he (God) sent me”

Another KJV renders it like this;

"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."



I guess these aren't clear either.....Seems we are at an impasse......

 

[Muffled]

Look, It was Yeshua who showed he existed in heaven and was separate from God. He showed this twice in your scripture.

John 6:38
For I (Yeshua) have come down from heaven, not to do My own (Separate) will, but the will of Him (My god) who sent me”

John 8:42................ I (Yeshua) proceeded and came forth from God; I (Yeshua) came not of my (Yeshua) own accord, but he (God) sent me”

Another KJV renders it like this;

"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

If he was in heaven before coming here then he had no "physical" body. If he says he came neither of himself but his god sent him then he is showing you that he himself is not God. He was sent by his god.

Your interpretation is that God and Yeshua are not separate nor do they have separate wills but Yeshua says they do so plainly in these two verses. Yeshua was in heaven separately from his god. His god sent him....

In order to be sent there must be a sender.

You have not proved this statment.

This is not the case.

Your addition of the name Yeshua is spurious. There was not an entity named Jesus until Mary named her child Jesus. Such an entity could not have existed in Heaven. Since Jesus is speaking using first person singular (I), it must be concluded that He identified Himself as having come down from Heaven. Heaven only has spirits and Jesus did not descend from Heaven bodily. There is no indication that He is a separate spirit from God.

Again you have added in the word separate because it is not there in the verse. Jesus is not stating that He has His own will but the exact opposite that His will is God's will.


I can agree with that statement however God is capable of sending Himself. It is due to His omnipresence that He can do it. What is impossible with men is possible with God. You are trying to make God fit into a human mold and it can't be done.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You have not proved this statment.

I just did. If you choose to ignore it then that is your prerogative. You have shown no evidence from the four gospels that they are in fact the same or have the same will. Your scripture says to the contrary.

This is not the case.

Sorry, I gave you references....how you choose to interpret these plain statements is on you. You did the exact same thing in the beginning when you listed a slew of quotes and they proved nothing other than a lack of understanding your part.

Since Jesus is speaking using first person singular (I), it must be concluded that He identified Himself as having come down from Heaven. Heaven only has spirits and Jesus did not descend from Heaven bodily.

Yes. I said all that in my last post.

There is no indication that He is a separate spirit from God.

Actually those scriptures are showing him to be separate.:sarcastic

Again you have added in the word separate because it is not there in the verse. Jesus is not stating that He has His own will

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me”


Sorry but you are incorret. That is certainly what this verse means. The very next verse give indication as well....


John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Or as we find in in his prayer to his god;

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom you hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may see my glory, which you hast given me: for you loved me before the creation of the world.

Sorry.....but separate wills here. Not only that but he says God "gave" him glory and "loved" him before the creation of the world. This shows that they are certainly separate. You will disagree with no doubt. Your salvation rest upon it but not for me.

God is capable of sending Himself.
It is due to His omnipresence that He can do it.

Yea....this makes no sense at all. First show me in the scpture where it says God sent himself. You won't be able to find one verse. You accuse me of not being able to prove something but yet you make a claim that your god is capable of sending himself and you left it at that with no evidence to support your claim. Secondly if your god is (Omnipresent) then there is no need for him to be sent or to send himself. He would already be there. Such is the meaning of omnipresent.

You are trying to make God fit into a human mold and it can't be done.

I am doing no such thing. You say your god came in the form of a man. That man was born of a woman. The angel of God told the woman what the earthly name of God would be. This is you trying to fit God into a human mold. This is you trying to bring God down to your level so that you may identify with him.

Until you have real "overwheling" proof that Yeshua said he was God then all you have is conjecture.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Rev. 1:17-18
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Any questions?