Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

No verse ever stands on its own but you haven't let it lie fallow either because you elicit your own meaning from it.

Kind of hard to draw any other conclusion from that verse....Some verses truly don't need numerous interpretations. You are God. I am the Messiah. You sent me. Plain and simple. What meaning did I get from this other than the one intended?

A prayer defines a role? that is news to me.

Well, he did. "I am the Messiah (the anointed one, ambassador, representative) who you sent". As we, those on the outside, observe that prayer we can see that it is laid out that God (YHWH) alone is the "one true god".....but Yeshua was the messisah that the one true god sent. Very easy and simple to understand.

Now if Jesus were to say I am going to tell you just what my relationship with the Father is all about that would be different.

John 13:16
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him

We know Yeshua was a servant to his god as set forth in Matthew 12:18;

Matthew 12:18Look at my Servant, whom I have chosen. He is my Beloved, and I am very pleased with him. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Seems simple enough. God chose Yeshua (the pre-existed Yeshua) for a task that was to be completed.

Even when Jesus does state that He and the Father are one it is not because He is defining His role but because He is ansering a question.

But even that verse is easy to answer. They weren't one in the sense as being one god but rather one in purpose. That is what that verse means. The confirmation is in John 17:11, 22 and 23. Yeshua couldn't help it if people didn't understand what he meant. He did his best to clarify their misunderstandings.

On the contrary this prayer is not private, it is shared with disciples or it would not be reported in scripture. It is for the benenfit of the Disciples that Jesus addresses God this way.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is nonsense......He prayed to his god because he was not God. When he was supposedly on the cross in pain and agony and yelled out "My God, My God..Why have you left me???!!! Was he was doing this for the people's benefit? Was he doing tis for the benefit of those who nailed him to the cross? Your reasoning on this is illogical and most trinitarians make this same claim with no evidence to backup this assertion. Yeshua seems to be praying a lot for the benefit of others....you'd think that people would have got the point. He prayed because that's what you'd expect one to do who is NOT God.

You always say it is clear when you can't prove your point.

Ok........So when Yeshua said "You are God. I am the Messiah. You sent me".....Are you saying that isn't clear? As I said, that is (one of) the clearest verses in the four gospels that show Yeshua is not God. I have to focus on that because people like you try to side track the issue by pointing the spotlight off of clear verses like that and on to the person who list them. What is there to prove? Your own original post said you had OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE that Yeshua was God. You have FAILED to produce said evidence.

On the other hand even if this verse were to vaguely suggest that Jesus were not God there are still those other verses that powerfully say that He is and it is the preponderance of evidence for His Godship that outweighs the vague suggestions that He might not be.

No, what's vague is the verses you listed to suggest Yeshua is God. Context says otherwise. Do what you will with verse 17:3 (context wise or definition) and it will still come out to mean Yeshua is not God. While your at it you can do the same with these;

John 8:28
.........I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:38
I speak that which I have seen (with) my Father (god):

John 8:42
......I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me.

John 20:17
........I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my god, and your god.

 

[crystalonyx]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.

I would like to see convincing evidence that the suppsed Jesus existed historically, producing convincing evidence of the divinity of anything seems an impossiblity.

 

[Greatest I am]

I am truly overwhelmed by this “evidence”.

Not.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I am truly overwhelmed by this “evidence”.

Not.

Regards
DL

 

[crystalonyx]

I am truly overwhelmed by this “evidence”.

Not.

Regards
DL

Of What?

 

[Greatest I am]

Of What?

I was being cynical.

The only evidence in a scriptural quote is that it is a scriptural quote.
There is no evidence of God in any scripture.

Regards
DL

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I was being cynical.

The only evidence in a scriptural quote is that it is a scriptural quote.
There is no evidence of God in any scripture.

Regards
DL

To take it a step further.... The words are the only evidence that the words were put in a book. There's no evidence that the words were spoken or that the person speaking them existed. Most of it sounds like myth to me.

But for sake of spining this debate into an etirely different direction I approach the debate as if the person I'm speaking to actually believes the events to be historical and true.

 

[Greatest I am]

To take it a step further.... The words are the only evidence that the words were put in a book. There's no evidence that the words were spoken or that the person speaking them existed. Most of it sounds like myth to me.

But for sake of spining this debate into an etirely different direction I approach the debate as if the person I'm speaking to actually believes the events to be historical and true.

As you can read, I do not read the Bible literally.
It is a good guide to God and Jesus a good guide but that is all.
All Bibles regardless of which God, is of value for wisdom.
It is all in the reading.

Regards
DL

 

[Popeyesays]

The best proof of the Revelation are the words which express it.

the best proof of a Prophet is the Prophet's Own person.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

As you can read, I do not read the Bible literally.
It is a good guide to God and Jesus a good guide but that is all.
All Bibles regardless of which God, is of value for wisdom.
It is all in the reading.

Regards
DL

I agree. That is why I have a lot of respect for the Bahai way of life as well as the buddist and even hindu.

When it comes to the bible there are some general guidlines that we find in all faiths. Even an athiest can find substance in the bible. We all may not agree with the rituals, traditions etc. but we all can find those general guidlines to live by.

The originator of this thread said he had overwhelming evidence Yeshua was God and that's what has sparked this debate that has gone on for months. It's one of those never ending debates. It may stop here at some point but it is inevitable that it will startup somewhere else.

On the other side of this, we have to be careful of what we read. Poor translation, wording and phrasing can play a big part in division.

 

[Muffled]

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is nonsense......He prayed to his god because he was not God. When he was supposedly on the cross in pain and agony and yelled out "My God, My God..Why have you left me???!!! Was he was doing this for the people's benefit? Was he doing tis for the benefit of those who nailed him to the cross? Your reasoning on this is illogical and most trinitarians make this same claim with no evidence to backup this assertion. Yeshua seems to be praying a lot for the benefit of others....you'd think that people would have got the point. He prayed because that's what you'd expect one to do who is NOT God.

I repeat you keep saying things are clear or my words are nonsense because you can't prove your point.

Back this up with a biblical statement by Jesus that this is why He prayed. I figure you can at least make some effort to back up your statements if you want to be listened to.

Yes. The Psalm he begins quoting is one that bears witness that Jesus is the Messiah.

Not really. You don't get the point. What is the point of prayer? Is it not to bring about that which is not but should be. In that case does not God have the same desire: to bring understanding where there is a lack of understanding, to bring peace where there is a lack of peace, to bring about the unity of believers where disunity tends to abound.

This is your reasoning:

Humans pray to God
Jesus prays to God
Therefore Jesus must be human

The fallacy here is that only humans pray to God when in truth God can pray to God.

Now the reasoning is as follows:

Humans and God pray to God
Jesus prays to God
Jesus is either human or God.

John 11:41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou heardest me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me.

 

[n5division]

NOOOOO he ddn't!!! and who ever u are if u say he dd u r crazy lyk 30% of the world!!!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I repeat you keep saying things are clear or my words are nonsense because you can't prove your point.

Back this up with a biblical statement by Jesus that this is why He prayed. I figure you can at least make some effort to back up your statements if you want to be listened to.

My position is that Yeshua is not God because he showed us that he was separate from his god as described in his prayer to his god. In that prayer he admits that some one beyond him is the true god while he himself is the chosen messiah (blessed one, ambassador) whom his god sent. Proof of this is John 17:3

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

You are God, I am the blessed one who speaks on your behalf, whom you have sent.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Master of heaven and earth,...................

Not really. You don't get the point. What is the point of prayer? Is it not to bring about that which is not but should be. In that case does not God have the same desire: to bring understanding where there is a lack of understanding, to bring peace where there is a lack of peace, to bring about the unity of believers where disunity tends to abound.

I understand I just don't totally agree with you. It does not stand to reason that God cried out to himself in the garden for himself to remove the cup of death from himself. It does not stand to reason that God called out to himself asking himself why did he forsake himself. I don't agree with how trinitarians view this.

This is your reasoning:

Humans pray to God
Jesus prays to God

Bible confirms all of that.

Therefore Jesus must be human

I don't think I have ever reasoned that he was only human. I think I have said that he was divine. This is the image that is shown in the scripture. He was not divine in the sense of being God or a god but rather blessed by his god and given power by his god that others did not seem to have. He was the one whom said authority, in heaven, was given to him. He was the one who said he was sent.....In order to be given there must be a giver...In order to be sent there must be a sender.....

The fallacy here is that only humans pray to God when in truth God can pray to God.

Speaking of not being able to back it up....Wow.....I think you just like to hear the sound of your voice....

Now the reasoning is as follows:

Humans and God pray to God

Proof please......Can you show me the verse where it says "God prayed to himself"???

 

[Muffled]

My position is that Yeshua is not God because he showed us that he was separate from his god as described in his prayer to his god. In that prayer he admits that some one beyond him is the true god while he himself is the chosen messiah (blessed one, ambassador) whom his god sent. Proof of this is John 17:3

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

I don't think I have ever reasoned that he was only human. I think I have said that he was divine. This is the image that is shown in the scripture. He was not divine in the sense of being God or a god but rather blessed by his god and given power by his god that others did not seem to have. He was the one whom said authority, in heaven, was given to him. He was the one who said he was sent.....In order to be given there must be a giver...In order to be sent there must be a sender.....

Jesus has done no such thing. This is your reasoning not a statement of Jesus. You will have to demonstrate how you think He did what you say. I do not find it in the text.

Again Jesus does no such thing. He never stated anything about anyone beyond Himself. Those are your words that you are trying to put in His mouth.

If Jesus is divine He is God that is what divinity means. You are stating that He is only a God enhanced human. Jesus has a different perspective:

John 2:24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men,
25 and because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus has done no such thing. This is your reasoning not a statement of Jesus. You will have to demonstrate how you think He did what you say. I do not find it in the text.

Actually he did you just don't agree with me is all. When he says you are the true god and I am the blessed one whom you have sent......is pretty clear what is meant unless you believe he was talking to himself and was a lunatic......

Again Jesus does no such thing. He never stated anything about anyone beyond Himself. Those are your words that you are trying to put in His mouth.

Sure he did......That's what he said. I didn't say it.

John 17:1 and 3
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father.....

.....this is life eternal, that they might know you, the only true god, and Jesus the Messiah, whom you have sent.

Unless you believe he meant something different in this declaration.

If Jesus is divine He is God that is what divinity means. You are stating that He is only a God enhanced human. Jesus has a different perspective:

One does not have to be deity in order to be divine.

 

[Katzpur]

One does not have to be deity in order to be divine.

Huh? How do you figure?

 

[Popeyesays]

Huh? How do you figure?

A Prophet's revelation is FROM God but is not God Himself.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Huh? How do you figure?

Well....Aren't God's angelic beings divine?..........

Divinity
1.the quality of being divine; divine nature.
2.deity; godhood.
3.a divine being; God.
4.the Divinity, (sometimes lowercase

) the Deity.
5.a being having divine attributes, ranking below God but above humans: minor divinities.
6.the study or science of divine things; theology.
7.godlike character; supreme excellence.

 

[lunamoth]

Is too!

 

[Popeyesays]

Luna,

Did you grow up in El Paso, Texas and go to school there. I am sure that I knew you in the third grade and we stuck tongues out at each other all the time.