Did Jesus say he was God???

[Jordan St. Francis]

And there is nothing in that statement that implicitly or explicitly says he is. What we find in the statement is that his will is to do the will of his god. It's the same as we find in John 17:21 but surly we aren't considering the disciples as God too are we?

This is part of the problem, when the Gospel of John is just read in chunks rather than as a coherent and unified theological work. A theme of John is the parallelism between who and what Jesus is, and what his coming among us will make us when we cleave to him.

It can not be stated enough that the Prologue of John explicitly identifies Jesus, the Word, with God, and declares him to be "The Only Begotten at the Father's Heart", the one "who makes the Father known". The Prologue establishes the Incarnation of the Word, the Only Begotten Son, who- as we later see-is the Way, the Truth and the Life, the True Vine, to which we must be united in order to bear fruit.

The basic condition for salvation, according to John, is union with Christ who has come down from heaven. When we are united to Him we are enabled to share in his life, and yes, even in his divine Sonship. Thus a certain parallelism emerges, those who believe in Christ and cleave to him also come to mirror him and imitate him. This is clear already in the Prologue, where the Incarnation of the divine Word, the Son, means that we too can become children of God- born of no other will than God's own- if we receive Christ.

Now, nowhere does the Gospel suggest that our sonship is the same as Jesus' sonship, on the contrary, as the Prologue establishes, we can only become sons of the Father because the one who was always Son has come to us and we have received him. He is the only Begotten, but we are children through faith.

We are sons of God only by virtue of the one who is the Son of God, and thus our sonship is always dependent on his eternal Sonship. There is not equivocation, but parallelism.

The very dynamic of Christ's saving action means that we are drawn up into imitation of Him- including His total union with the Father, which becomes the basis of the communion of the People of God in His Church (see John 17 again)

The Son is sent from the Father- and we are sent by the Son:

As Christ prays to the Father "As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world" (17:18)

"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you..." (20:21)

Yet it is quite plain to see that, in the strictest sense, Jesus is not sending the disciples into the world in the way he himself was sent- Jesus is from above, from the beginning, from the side of the Father, descending. None of this can be said of the Apostles who nonetheless receive his commission. Yet because they abide in Christ, the Vine whose Father is the Vinegrower, they receive the life of that Vine and so become relative to Christ, just as Christ is relative to the Father.

Christ reveals the Father to us, and whoever receives Him receives the Father, and the Apostles bring Christ to the world, so that, whoever receives "you receives me" (Jn. 13:20)

"The Son can do nothing of his own accord", says Jesus in Jn 5:19-30, and it is clear that the Apostles can do nothing without Christ in whom they must abide.

All this must be considered when we read the prayer of Christ, that "as you Father are in me, may they also be in us...so that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and You in me, so that they may become completely one..."

When considered, we can see that this is parallelism and not equivocation, in the same sense that we become "sons" on account of the Son. What we see is Christ taking his disciples into the very dynamic which marks out his relationship to the Father: the unity of the Father and the Son become reflected in the unity of the Apostles- the sending of the Son becomes the sending of the Apostles- the revelation of the Father becomes, in the mission of the Apostles (from here the Church) the revelation of Christ to the world. At every stage here we see the traditional Christian doctrine: that Christ is, as it were, inside both God and man, is himself both God and man, and so the point of contact between both. Jesus models man to God, and models God to man, and is himself in natures perfectly both. So, as the Son is turned to the Father, so man can now be turned to the Father. As the Father gazes towards the Son, so now the Father can gaze upon man. This is all enabled because "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us"- because of the Incarnation.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

In view of the author of Matthew, Jesus is Emmanuel:

Mat. 1.23

Of course this is the author's interpretation but nowhere in Matthew is there a report of any follower of Yeshua calling him by that title. Nor do we find it in Mark (the supposed earliest gospel)...nor is it in Luke or John. From what I've read there is no mention of this title other than in the OT, and Matthew 1:23....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This is part of the problem, when the Gospel of John is just read in chunks rather than as a coherent and unified theological work. A theme of John is the parallelism between who and what Jesus is, and what his coming among us will make us when we cleave to him.

It can not be stated enough that the Prologue of John explicitly identifies Jesus, the Word, with God, and declares him to be "The Only Begotten at the Father's Heart", the one "who makes the Father known". The Prologue establishes the Incarnation of the Word, the Only Begotten Son, who- as we later see-is the Way, the Truth and the Life, the True Vine, to which we must be united in order to bear fruit.

The basic condition for salvation, according to John, is union with Christ who has come down from heaven. When we are united to Him we are enabled to share in his life, and yes, even in his divine Sonship. Thus a certain parallelism emerges, those who believe in Christ and cleave to him also come to mirror him and imitate him. This is clear already in the Prologue, where the Incarnation of the divine Word, the Son, means that we too can become children of God- born of no other will than God's own- if we receive Christ.

Now, nowhere does the Gospel suggest that our sonship is the same as Jesus' sonship, on the contrary, as the Prologue establishes, we can only become sons of the Father because the one who was always Son has come to us and we have received him. He is the only Begotten, but we are children through faith.

We are sons of God only by virtue of the one who is the Son of God, and thus our sonship is always dependent on his eternal Sonship. There is not equivocation, but parallelism.

The very dynamic of Christ's saving action means that we are drawn up into imitation of Him- including His total union with the Father, which becomes the basis of the communion of the People of God in His Church (see John 17 again)

The Son is sent from the Father- and we are sent by the Son:

As Christ prays to the Father "As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world" (17:18)

"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you..." (20:21)

Yet it is quite plain to see that, in the strictest sense, Jesus is not sending the disciples into the world in the way he himself was sent- Jesus is from above, from the beginning, from the side of the Father, descending. None of this can be said of the Apostles who nonetheless receive his commission. Yet because they abide in Christ, the Vine whose Father is the Vinegrower, they receive the life of that Vine and so become relative to Christ, just as Christ is relative to the Father.

Christ reveals the Father to us, and whoever receives Him receives the Father, and the Apostles bring Christ to the world, so that, whoever receives "you receives me" (Jn. 13:20)

"The Son can do nothing of his own accord", says Jesus in Jn 5:19-30, and it is clear that the Apostles can do nothing without Christ in whom they must abide.

All this must be considered when we read the prayer of Christ, that "as you Father are in me, may they also be in us...so that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and You in me, so that they may become completely one..."

When considered, we can see that this is parallelism and not equivocation, in the same sense that we become "sons" on account of the Son. What we see is Christ taking his disciples into the very dynamic which marks out his relationship to the Father: the unity of the Father and the Son become reflected in the unity of the Apostles- the sending of the Son becomes the sending of the Apostles- the revelation of the Father becomes, in the mission of the Apostles (from here the Church) the revelation of Christ to the world. At every stage here we see the traditional Christian doctrine: that Christ is, as it were, inside both God and man, is himself both God and man, and so the point of contact between both. Jesus models man to God, and models God to man, and is himself in natures perfectly both. So, as the Son is turned to the Father, so man can now be turned to the Father. As the Father gazes towards the Son, so now the Father can gaze upon man. This is all enabled because "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us"- because of the Incarnation.

I get what you're saying and I've heard it all before but when gazing upon your scriptures Yeshua does not inform, display or teach any of his followers he is God or God in the flesh. No one ever called him Immanuel or referred to him by the title and his followers did not think he was God....

 

[ayani]

I get what you're saying and I've heard it all before but when gazing upon your scriptures Yeshua does not inform, display or teach any of his followers he is God or God in the flesh. No one ever called him Immanuel or referred to him by the title and his followers did not think he was God....

Jesus does allow people to draw their own conclusions as to who He is. He does not exactly come out and say "I am God" or "I am God made Man", but here are some verses which do point to His identity and significance, and certainly His uniqueness among men.

John 14:6-9

Mark 2:1-12

John 17:5

Matthew 11:27

Matthew 28:18

John 5:19

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus does allow people to draw their own conclusions as to who He is. He does not exactly come out and say "I am God" or "I am God made Man", but here are some verses which do point to His identity and significance, and certainly His uniqueness among men.

John 14:6-9

Mark 2:1-12

John 17:5

Matthew 11:27

Matthew 28:18

John 5:19

Each one of these passages has surrounding it him referencing his god, praying to his god and praising his god. None of the followers in any of these chapters took him as God. You may gaze upon them as you have listed them above but when you read the chapter in full Yeshua does not give anyone the impression he is God and if there was anyone who did take him as such you will find him trying to clarify their misconception of him. It's easy to take one quote here and there and fit it to a preconceived notion but that doesn't work when you read then on a whole.

 

[Muffled]

Each one of these passages has surrounding it him referencing his god, praying to his god and praising his god. None of the followers in any of these chapters took him as God. You may gaze upon them as you have listed them above but when you read the chapter in full Yeshua does not give anyone the impression he is God and if there was anyone who did take him as such you will find him trying to clarify their misconception of him. It's easy to take one quote here and there and fit it to a preconceived notion but that doesn't work when you read then on a whole.

You can't prove anything arguing from a null hypothesis. A lack of evidence is not in itself evidence. The perceptions of men are often going to fall short of reality. Phillip says "show us the Father" revealing his lack of perception that Jesus corrects by saying: "he who has seen me has seen the Father."

So what is wrong with your perception? Why can't you see God when you see Jesus? Is it because you do not have the ability to perceive God because you are looking through dark glasses or some kind of personal preference filter?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You can't prove anything arguing from a null hypothesis.

Interesting but I wasn't arguing from a null hypothesis. If you believe this then both parties are in the same boat except your scripture don't have Yeshua walking around preaching or teaching he was God in the flesh. Within the 4 gospels the qotes that are attributed to him have him explicitly claiming he has a god that sent him and commanded him what he should do and say.

A lack of evidence is not in itself evidence.

And I understand but we are being told in vague terms that Yeshua is God and claimed divinity and careful study of the situation (context) says otherwise and has Yeshua continually referencing him completely separate from his one true god that sent him. Your scriptures say he isn't but your interpreters say otherwise.

The perceptions of men are often going to fall short of reality. Phillip says "show us the Father" revealing his lack of perception that Jesus corrects by saying: "he who has seen me has seen the Father."

And this in of itself does not prove he's claiming divinity rather he is showing he speaks for his god and by the command of his god. This is what he says. He said he only spoke the things he was shown by his god. He only spoke what he was commanded to speak. John the baptist didn't think he was God when he said very early on that Yeshua was sent by God and speaks the words of God.

So what is wrong with your perception? Why can't you see God when you see Jesus? Is it because you do not have the ability to perceive God because you are looking through dark glasses or some kind of personal preference filter?

It's because I'm not under some illusion that your scriptures are saying something it isn't. :no:

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Penguin,

Do you believe that the case is the Gospel authors believed he was divine- but that Jesus did not actually believe this of himself? Or that the Gospels themselves do not even make this claim to divinity?

I agree that that Jesus makes little if not any explicit claims to divinity- but in the way that he acts, in some of the words or titles that he uses or permits, how others relate to him and in the theological framework of the Gospels themselves, there is a sustained case for the divinity of Christ.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Penguin,

Do you believe that the case is the Gospel authors believed he was divine- but that Jesus did not actually believe this of himself?

I'm not really concerned with what they believed necessarily. The words they attributed to him do not lend credibility to this notion of him being God. We can tell, for the most part, when the writers are inserting their beliefs or interpretations of OT scripture but the words they say he said don't show deity.

Or that the Gospels themselves do not even make this claim to divinity?

Define "divinity".....My definition may be different from yours. I think from a theological point of view..one can be divine but not a deity. From a biblical stand point I can say he was divine but not God or a god. If you think that's incorrect then we can agree to disagree but I believe there is a difference.

I agree that that Jesus makes little if not any explicit claims to divinity- but in the way that he acts,

How? How does a god act? He said his power to do what he did was given to him by his god.....So he was only working with what he was given.

in some of the words or titles that he uses or permits,

Which ones?....

how others relate to him

Who?....From what I have read of the four gospels none of his followers thought he was God. They thought he was sent by God, They thought he was the Messiah, They thought he was a healer, They thought he was a teacher......but I read nothing in your scripture to suggest that they thought he was their god in the flesh.

and in the theological framework of the Gospels themselves, there is a sustained case for the divinity of Christ.

Again, our definitions of (divine) differ. I think, from a theological framework of the gospels...one can be divine but not be a god...

 

[idea]

One question. If jesus was God, How can he be the son of God?

Good question - here are some other ones:

Who was Jesus praying to - Himself?

Did Jesus forsake himself?

Did he ascend to Himself?

Christ is mediator between us and God - how could He mediate between us and... himself?

John 14:28 - the Father is greater than the Son... seems like if they were the same person, they would both have the same greatness...

John 20:17 - The Father is God over the Son;
He is... over himself????

Mark 13:32 - The Father knew something that the Son did not yet know (i.e., the day and hour of the Second Coming);

If they were both the same person, wouldn't Jesus know when the second coming was?

Matt. 20:20-23 - Deciding who will sit at the side of Jesus is the right of the Father only, not the Son;
gets a little strange if the Father and the Son are the same person.


many such passages, including those in John in which Christ said He did not teach His own doctrines, but only those that He had heard or seen from the Father (see John 5:19; 7:16-18, 8:38, 12:49,50, and 15:15).

God not teaching his own doctrines????

Christ is divine, He is the son of God (not God - the son of)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Good question - here are some other ones:

Who was Jesus praying to - Himself?

Did Jesus forsake himself?

Did he ascend to Himself?

Christ is mediator between us and God - how could He mediate between us and... himself?

John 14:28 - the Father is greater than the Son... seems like if they were the same person, they would both have the same greatness...

John 20:17 - The Father is God over the Son;
He is... over himself????

Mark 13:32 - The Father knew something that the Son did not yet know (i.e., the day and hour of the Second Coming);

If they were both the same person, wouldn't Jesus know when the second coming was?

Matt. 20:20-23 - Deciding who will sit at the side of Jesus is the right of the Father only, not the Son;
gets a little strange if the Father and the Son are the same person.


many such passages, including those in John in which Christ said He did not teach His own doctrines, but only those that He had heard or seen from the Father (see John 5:19; 7:16-18, 8:38, 12:49,50, and 15:15).

God not teaching his own doctrines????

Christ is divine, He is the son of God (not God - the son of)

I know.....

How anyone today can read these quotes and still say and believe he was God is interesting to me. This is why I said the bible (4 gospels) say one thing and the interpreters saying another. Jews don't believe in a triune God. Never have, never will....So where did this concept of "trinity" come from??? I think it was born out of paganism. The 4 gospels aren't a hard read.......The words attributed to Yeshua are easy to understand why he wasn't God, didn't think he was God, didn't preach or teach he was God nor did the believers believe he was God in the flesh....

 

[gzusfrk]

Could we agree that you have to have jesus to get to the father?

 

[idea]

Could we agree that you have to have jesus to get to the father?

I agree with that.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Could we agree that you have to have jesus to get to the father?

Well...we could but some here are arguing from two different perspectives of christianity with a few muslims thrown in and a sprinkle of atheist.

The main theme of this long winded thread is not how does one obtain salvation. We're all interpreting the words of 4 gospels as to what the supposed Yeshua said, didn't say or what he meant when he said it. We have covered this question extensively here and every so often it gets "resurrected"......with one more person adding to the pot.....

How about we agree to move on because I won't be able to convince a trinitarian nor will they be able to convince me.....if anything this has been the only thing proven....:beach:

 

[ayani]

You may gaze upon them as you have listed them above but when you read the chapter in full Yeshua does not give anyone the impression he is God and if there was anyone who did take him as such you will find him trying to clarify their misconception of him.

i don't believe these things about Jesus because i've been taught them, Penguin. on the contrary, i came to Christian faith from a religious tradition which firmly insists that Jesus is only a man, only a human prophet, and not worthy of worship or adoration.

but Jesus does say "if you have seen Me, you have seen God. whoever has known Me, has known the Father". He is not saying in John 14:6-9 "i speak for my God". that is your own reading of the text based on what you think He is saying. here is the full text:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

you and others are right to say that Jesus prays to God and gives God all the credit for His miracles and power. but from a human perspective, who is Jesus? the things He does are not here-and-there events of healing and wonders as we see in the lives of prophets like Elijah. Jesus does these things continually, in the power of God, day after day. so for the men and women seeing and hearing Him, was Jesus not the very power, love, grace, authority, and word of God come down in human form, doing things only God can do?

like forgiving sins, healing the sick, banishing evil, giving life to the dead, having willful and spontaneous control over the elements, and proclaiming that before the world was made, He was there in God's glory?

doubtless between Father and Son there is a hierarchy. Jesus does not pray to Himself, He prays to the Father. but He does accept and answer the prayers and cries for help of people in need of healing and miracles by touching them, allowing them to touch Him, banishing the illness, or speaking a word. Jesus does not credit Himself for His authority, He credits God. yet He forgives sins and gives life of His own innately Godly will and power.

with the cases of other Biblical figures (Moses is a great example), we see them cry out to God for help or a miracle, and God answers and tells them what to do. not so Jesus. He credits the Father with His work, yet just does things as He pleases, according to people's needs and faith.

Father and Son are distinct, yet One. if you've been healed by Jesus, you have been healed by God. if you have seen and touched Jesus, you have seen and touched God. not all of God, but God made man, present with humanity in and through His Son.

 

[gzusfrk]

My friends i have to tell you i know that god is real not by reading the bible not by any indoctrination through family beliefs .I know because i have seen the holy one with my own eyes .What i am saying is true the lord has blessed me with a miracle .

why does He like you more than me?

 

[idea]

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Yes, they are related to one another, they look like one another. They are both perfect, both have the same goals, think the same, etc. etc.

Jesus was more than just another guy like the rest of us. He is perfect, he could have chosen to live forever. He was the only one capable of saving us.

He is a different being than God though. Two different people - Not my will but thine be done... I mean how would that be translated? Not my will, but my other will be done? God is not some schitzo 3 in one ???? He is a flesh and bone being who looks like His only Son.

 

[idea]

why does He like you more than me?

11 ... there is no respect of persons with God.
(New Testament | Romans 2:11)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

i don't believe these things about Jesus because i've been taught them, Penguin. on the contrary, i came to Christian faith from a religious tradition which firmly insists that Jesus is only a man, only a human prophet, and not worthy of worship or adoration.

but Jesus does say "if you have seen Me, you have seen God. whoever has known Me, has known the Father". He is not saying in John 14:6-9 "i speak for my God". that is your own reading of the text based on what you think He is saying. here is the full text:

You are interpreting he is saying he is God and this is not what he's saying nor did any one hearing him conclude that is what he was saying. All Yeshua is saying is he "represents" his god. They wanted to see God but their scripture say they can not see God and live...so the scripture say "he who is sent speaks the word of God"..so this is what they're getting. They're getting one of God's representatives delivering the gospel to them that he received from his god. When he says when you see God you see me does not mean you're literally looking at God....All it means is he represents God by the things he says and the good deeds he's doing...all of which his god tasked and commanded he do. One in purpose does not mean one in the same.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Yep...I hear you but go and study the rest of the verses after that. Yeshua does not teach the followers he's God...at best he is a mediator.... a middle man.

14:10
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I say are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me.[/FONT]

14:16
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, who will never leave you.[/FONT]

If he is God then who will he be asking to send another counselor?

14:21
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Those who obey my commandments are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them, and I will love them. And I will reveal myself to each one of them."[/FONT]

"my father will love them, AND I will love them"....????????

14:23
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica] Jesus replied, "All those who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and live with them.[/FONT]

"my father will love them, AND WE will come to them".....?????


14:24
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Anyone who doesn't love me will not do what I say. And remember, my words are not my own. This message is from the Father who sent me.[/FONT]

God was sent..?.....sent by who...?

14:28
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really love me, you will be very happy for me, because now I can go to the Father, who is greater than I am.[/FONT]

you and others are right to say that Jesus prays to God and gives God all the credit for His miracles and power. but from a human perspective, who is Jesus? the things He does are not here-and-there events of healing and wonders as we see in the lives of prophets like Elijah. Jesus does these things continually, in the power of God, day after day. so for the men and women seeing and hearing Him, was Jesus not the very power, love, grace, authority, and word of God come down in human form, doing things only God can do?

I get you but obviously God is not the only one that can do it if he allows others to do it. Yeshua saying his god gave him the power to do what he was doing is the same as God, from the heavens, granting Elijah or Moses to do what they did. Your John the baptist says it this way.....

John 3:34
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.[/FONT]

like forgiving sins, healing the sick, banishing evil, giving life to the dead, having willful and spontaneous control over the elements, and proclaiming that before the world was made, He was there in God's glory?

I understand what you're saying but doing what he did was not exclusive to Yeshua because not only did his god grant him the power and ability to do what he did he granted this power to others. And yes the scriptures have Yeshua saying he existed (WITH) his god before the world was created but this further shows he is completely separate from his god. He flat out says (I come down from heaven, NOT OF MY OWN WILL, but the will of THE ONE WHO SENT ME).....We know that "ONE" to be his god. As we look forward into your book of Revelation God and Yeshua (The Lamb) are completely separate in heaven. Yeshua, once again, explicitly, informs his follower he has a god (Rev. 3:12)...

 

[Muffled]

Good question - here are some other ones:

Who was Jesus praying to - Himself?

Did Jesus forsake himself?

Did he ascend to Himself?

Christ is mediator between us and God - how could He mediate between us and... himself?

John 14:28 - the Father is greater than the Son... seems like if they were the same person, they would both have the same greatness...

John 20:17 - The Father is God over the Son;
He is... over himself????

Mark 13:32 - The Father knew something that the Son did not yet know (i.e., the day and hour of the Second Coming);

If they were both the same person, wouldn't Jesus know when the second coming was?

Matt. 20:20-23 - Deciding who will sit at the side of Jesus is the right of the Father only, not the Son;
gets a little strange if the Father and the Son are the same person.


many such passages, including those in John in which Christ said He did not teach His own doctrines, but only those that He had heard or seen from the Father (see John 5:19; 7:16-18, 8:38, 12:49,50, and 15:15).

God not teaching his own doctrines????

Christ is divine, He is the son of God (not God - the son of)

These questions have been answered in the previous pages. I know it is laborious reading but if you take it a couple of pages a day you will learn providnig that you have a teachable spirit and obviously not everyone has one. However my memory is not so great so I will address question which appear to be new.

This is a question of perception. His audience perceived Him as a man who would have had his own doctrines if He were just a man. By saying that His doctrine is God's doctrine He is identifying Himself as God. Otherwise He would have had the doctrines of men.