Did Jesus say he was God???

[arimoff]

Gen 18:1 ¶ And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

I suppose you could be excused for being ignorant of the Torah becasue you spend too much time listening to orthodox brainwashing.

I suppose you could say that the three men who arrived didn't include God if you could prove it. We find that the three men ask about Sarah in v9 but in v10 it says "He said" in v11 which doesn't refer back to the three but back to Jehovah. Then
Gen 18:13 And Jehovah said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh,

Genesis 18:1-22:24

1. Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot

2. And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.

can't you see three men? Lord appeared means He send the angels, because as you see the next verse says three man.

and behold, three men: One to bring the news [of Isaac’s birth] to Sarah, and one to overturn Sodom, and one to heal Abraham, for one angel does not perform two errands (Gen. Rabbah 50:2). You should know that [this is true] because throughout the entire chapter, Scripture mentions them in the plural, e.g., (below verse 8): “and they ate” ; (ibid. verse 9): “and they said to him.” Concerning the announcement, however, it says (ibid. verse 10): “And he said: I will surely return to you.” And concerning the overturning of Sodom, it says (below 19:22): “For I will not be able to do anything” ; (ibid. verse 21): “I will not overturn” (Gen. Rabbah 50:11). And Raphael, who healed Abraham, went from there to save Lot. This is what is stated:“And it came to pass when they took them outside, that he [the angel] said, ‘Flee for your life.’” You learn that only one acted as a deliverer.

the commentary is from Medrash, and don't tell me it doesn't count because I already told you thats Judaism, Torah is Judaism medrash is Judaism Talmud is Judaism, you don't have to like it or believe it but don't claim they are wrong it's not up to you to decide that, you want to believe in G-D of the Torah then respect it and don't claim one part is right one part is wrong, or just go believe in something else.

G-D can't appear physically can't you understand that? I'm not forcing you to believe that but you got to get this straight, in Judaism G-D doesn't appear physically because people like you will create images as an effect an idol and hang it on their neck, and sometimes put it in there pocket before doing something bad, so he can't see it, thats not Judaism.

 

[arimoff]

Gen 18:1 ¶ And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

I suppose you could be excused for being ignorant of the Torah becasue you spend too much time listening to orthodox brainwashing.

I suppose you could say that the three men who arrived didn't include God if you could prove it. We find that the three men ask about Sarah in v9 but in v10 it says "He said" in v11 which doesn't refer back to the three but back to Jehovah. Then
Gen 18:13 And Jehovah said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh,

13. And the Lord said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Is it really true that I will give birth, although I am old?'

as you see the lord asked him later, after the story of 3 angels, as I told you before either you know better and trying to cheat to prove your point or you just.....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

First I want to say maybe to you its brain washing but they do know more about Torah then you or your church, where did you even come from? how dare you claim you know better then those who made it? you don't even speak hebrew to tell me what it says there, neither you all any kind like you.

It is stupid on your part, it is the same thing as telling me your real name is such and such, I know better how your parents named you.

You can believe in 10 Jesuses for all I care, but I if you take Torah please respect its laws and traditions and mainly its ideology and then go create any g-d you want but don't come back to those who live by Torah claiming they are stupid and don't know, they live by it for centuries and some idiot comes and claims them brain washing.

I know the Torah is very dear to you but let's try to keep it civil.

And yes, from a theological stand point...I agree with this and the next post of yours...

 

[arimoff]

If Jesus were just a man it would make no sense becasue God gets rid of men as He pleases. However Jesus as God in the flesh brings home the verse that says "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son." How can God prove to you that He really loves you any more than laying down His life for you.

Secondly there were the Sadducees who said there was no resurrection of the dead. For God to prove there was a resurrection He had to resurrect people and since He was laying His life down anyway, He further illustrates this by rising from the dead Himself.

looool Jesus as g-d make more sense then Jesus man. please source for your verse that brings it home, proving that he loves me? returning me back to land of Israel and freeing me from men like you who just hate me because im jewish, and your jesus was the direct reason why church was always killing jews, so according to you g-d loves me and he brought his son in whos name i will get killed ha?:help:

G-D doesn't resurrect people according to Judaism he will do it after Moshiach comes.

 

[Greatest I am]

In Isaiah 53:10, it says the Lord Himself will be the guilt offering.
In Numbers 35- the death of the high priest can be the atonement sacrifice for sins.
In 2 Samuel 8:18-David's Sons are priests.
In Zechariah 6:11-13; it mentions placing a crown on the high priest, Joshua (or Yeshua/Jesus)
In the Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 39a- There are 3 signs for sacrifices
When the signs were negative, the sacrifices weren't accepted, when they were positive, they were.
Then, during the last 40 years before the 2nd temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, all 3 signs were negative, each and every time.
Jesus was crucified in AD 30
Temple destroyed in AD 70
40 years difference
Therefore God did not accept sacrifices as Jesus/Yeshua was the final atonement/sacrifice as prophesied.

A creator sacrificing Himself for His creations who are exactly what He created. Wow. LOL.

Then again, me sacrificing myself to me is not much. God to God is not much either.

BTW, Gods cannot die. They are immortal. Did you not know that?

Regards
DL

 

[arimoff]

A creator sacrificing Himself for His creations who are exactly what He created. Wow. LOL.

Then again, me sacrificing myself to me is not much. God to God is not much either.

BTW, Gods cannot die. They are immortal. Did you not know that?

Regards
DL

:clap:yes:

 

[Greatest I am]

Thanks.

Regards
DL

 

[Muffled]

looool Jesus as g-d make more sense then Jesus man. please source for your verse that brings it home, proving that he loves me? returning me back to land of Israel and freeing me from men like you who just hate me because im jewish, and your jesus was the direct reason why church was always killing jews, so according to you g-d loves me and he brought his son in whos name i will get killed ha?:help:

G-D doesn't resurrect people according to Judaism he will do it after Moshiach comes.

Gen 18:1 The Lord and Jehovah is the same thing.

ROFLMAO!!!!! He is just getting you all in one place so that it is more easy to eradicate you.

How presumptuous of you. My greatest desire is that you should be saved as I am. I take no joy in your love affair with the devil and death. That is why you are killed because the devil can do what he wishes to do with his own.

You couldn't get further from the truth. Jesus came to bring everyone life, the Jews first then the Gentiles. It may well be that some people associated with the Church acted as an antichrist in killing Jews but such actions have nothing to do with Chistianity.

The devil could kill you in the name of Jehovah (as he did with Jesus) but that misuse of the name has nothing to do with the reality that God loves you.

 

[arimoff]

Gen 18:1 The Lord and Jehovah is the same thing.

ROFLMAO!!!!! He is just getting you all in one place so that it is more easy to eradicate you.

How presumptuous of you. My greatest desire is that you should be saved as I am. I take no joy in your love affair with the devil and death. That is why you are killed because the devil can do what he wishes to do with his own.

You couldn't get further from the truth. Jesus came to bring everyone life, the Jews first then the Gentiles. It may well be that some people associated with the Church acted as an antichrist in killing Jews but such actions have nothing to do with Chistianity.

The devil could kill you in the name of Jehovah (as he did with Jesus) but that misuse of the name has nothing to do with the reality that God loves you.

G-D doesn't make mistakes, and He doesn't need a second chance a.k.a the second coming.

the church killed Jews because they considered them the devil, according to you they are Antichrist, but yet you claim the same, so you are the Antichrist.

stop acting as a child and don't play with the devil, he might bight your finger off lol. Judaism doesn't believe in devil so you can't bring this idea in argument with me. Or you just trying to insult me because you have nothing else to say.

Your argument is weak just like your idea, I will prove it to you according the this thread.

gen 18:1

Jehovah is the name you use witch is written in there, Lord is the English translation of Jehovah, so you are using this to show me what? don't tell me Jehovah is Jesus and lord is the father, because that would be stupid.

Deuteronomy: ch 18

20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die

21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"

22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Now prove me wrong!!!.

Jesus came during the beginning of the exile, if he was the savior as he promised we should have been saved, but we were exiled, so Jesus did not fulfill his promiss so he is not G-D and he is not Moshiach.

 

[lew0049]

Yep yep. Floated right on up there.
Gods cannot die or sacrifice themselves to themselves because their creations do exactly what they were created to do.

Any one that believes in miracles of all kinds should try growing up.
Come back when you are 12.

Regards
DL

You act as if we are supposed to understand everything about God and his motives by using common sense, but how is it possible to understand a creator completely when we are the creation? Mankind can be in God's image but that doesn't imply that he sees things anything like we do, I mean can you even fathom how God, if you will, created the world?

You cannot disprove miracles by using Natural Laws because the implicit conditions are - all other things being equal. They do not contradict science yet they are not governed by natural science. I will say that I think the term miracle is thrown around way too much.

 

[lew0049]

With reference to Genesis 18:1 and 1 not being God...

Similiar distinctions can be found in 19:1 where two angels appear... Gen 16:7 which is the heart of this disagreement because the "angel of the Lord" speaks for God in first person, v10 and v13 shows that the angel is distinguished from the Lord (Hebrew for angel is messenger) and identified w/ him...

I don't see much of connection with this and the thread.

 

[Jamal_a_Man]

Dear friend,

The quotes you have used are out of context. to be able to fully understand something whether it is in the bible, the quran or clinical medicine kumar and clark, one must have read the passage or verse in its context. with regards to religious literature this is even more important, and complicated.

it is more complicated because not only do you need to read the verse in tis context but also with the thought or mind of those who wrote it at the time and their way and use of their language.

back in those days, if one was called the 'son' of god, it did not mean that he was the literal son of god, but instead he was a godly person, a person who was one with god in action and obediance. 'god has son's by the tons in the old testement' quote Sheik Ahmed Deedat, he said this in one of his lectures titled 'is jesus the son of god?' you can find these lectures and debates with deedat in them who is running rings around the christian missionaries and evangelists as he has knowledge of the origins of the bible and how it is read and understood.

now, when jesus says ' i and my father are one' he doesnt mean he, the holy spirit and the father are one literally, like a sausage.... he means and if you read it in the context, that they are one in 'Purpose'. Jesus was one of the mightiest messengers of God and he was an excellent example for all human kind. thus he was one like god in purpose, because he too was trying to help people into a pure, straight path of success.

when jesus says he is the light he doesnt mean he is god, hwat he means is that he can give us light by showing us what is good and what is bad. in actual fact he is the light given to us BY god, a gift from him to us so that we may change our ways and find the right path.

now i can go onto more of these, and can answer all of them, but i would liek to give u references for the answers, but for now i can say is for you to do a favour for yourself, and look at the debates and lectures by Ahmed Deedat with christians on youtube. these videos are very friendly, they are not hate debates, instead they are friendly talks between deedat and variuous christian speekers who come together to find common ground. After all, the Qur'an asks that we (muslims) should invite and talk with people of the book (bible) and come to common terms, and i am sure the bible calls for this too.

Jamal.

i hop we can be frends

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In Isaiah 53:10, it says the Lord Himself will be the guilt offering.
In Numbers 35- the death of the high priest can be the atonement sacrifice for sins.
In 2 Samuel 8:18-David's Sons are priests.
In Zechariah 6:11-13; it mentions placing a crown on the high priest, Joshua (or Yeshua/Jesus)
In the Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 39a- There are 3 signs for sacrifices
When the signs were negative, the sacrifices weren't accepted, when they were positive, they were.
Then, during the last 40 years before the 2nd temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, all 3 signs were negative, each and every time.
Jesus was crucified in AD 30
Temple destroyed in AD 70
40 years difference
Therefore God did not accept sacrifices as Jesus/Yeshua was the final atonement/sacrifice as prophesied.

What happened 50 'days' after Jesus was resurrected?
Wasn't that the day of Pentecost? Pentecost means 50.

Hebrews (9:24) says Jesus entered into heaven itself to appear in the presence (person) of God for us.

According to Acts the proof of this occurred at Pentecost when God's spirit was poured out upon those 120 in chapters one and two. This power caused people to be able to speak in another's language and they could understand as Acts (2:7-11) brings out. This outpouring caused growth in the congregation. (Acts 2:41) getting the command of Matthew (28:19,20) off to a fast start with Jesus being the mediator of that new covenant (testament). (Hebrews 9:15-26) which started 50 days after his resurrection on earth to heaven.

 

[lynx3007]

dear jamal,

i would just like to ask you if you are muslim and what is your belief about Jesus?

LyNx

 

[Dirty Penguin]

dear jamal,

i would just like to ask you if you are muslim and what is your belief about Jesus?

LyNx

By the context of his post.....he's a muslim. Muslims believe in Yeshua (Isa). The late Ahmed Deedat said in plenty of his debates (You can find them on Youtube - I've seen them all)......"No muslim is a muslim unless he believe in Jesus (Isa)"....

The don't believe that Yeshua was a god, nor do they believe e was Allah (Eloh)....YHWH....God...nor do they believe Allah begat (physically) a son.

Truth be told....after reading the bible (NT - 4 gospels)....No one should be under the impression Yeshua was God. He explicitly says he has a god. Not only does he say this while on Earth but in the Book Of Revelation Yeshua, once again, informs he has a god. In that very same book, God is on the throne and all the heavenly host are praising him...telling him he the only one worthy to be praised ......then it is discovered there is none on earth or in heaven worthy of opening the seals..but here enters the "LAMB" (Yeshua)....and is deemed the only one worthy of opening the seals. If Yeshua was/is God then the question would not have been asked as to who is worthy of opening the seals...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Also, in the book of Revelation, which was written decades after Jesus was resurrected to heaven by God, the glorified Jesus still refers to himself at (Rev 2:18) as the Son of God.

At Revelation (3:12) Jesus still believes he has a God over him.
In verse 21 there are not one but two thrones mentioned. One throne for God and one throne for Jesus. If they were the same person why two thrones for one person?

 

[Jamal_a_Man]

dear jamal,

i would just like to ask you if you are muslim and what is your belief about Jesus?

LyNx

Dear Lynx,

Wether i am a Muslim, a Jew or a christian is of no importance. i would like to tell you my faith, but i do not want to distract you from what is important. You may be wondering, What the hell is he on about? lol well, in my opinion, if you are a christian, the first and fore most thing of importance is to understand who Isa (jesus) peace be upon him is. is he god? is he just a man? is he an imposter? or is he a mighty messenger og god? to understand what he is, and who he is, will clarify your mind.

My faith is a result of thought. deep thought and listening to those who speak the truth, and not what they want to believe or want to read, but the truth whether i like it or not. But how do you know if the truth is being presented? Well, the truth shines out from false hood, if you can look past your own desires and wants and really listen to what is being said, and let your heart have a role in deciding then surely the truth can be identified from falsehood.

ok i know i ramble! lol its a bad habbit.

Any ways, this here is a very interesting passage from John 5:30 where Isa (Jesus) may peace be upon him says:
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

What does this passage mean?

1) Jesus (peace be upon him) says that on his own he can do nothing. he cannot on his own accomplish anything!
2) As he hears (or in other words percieves), he Judges! and his judgement is just! why is his judgement just? because he is a rightly guided person! how is he a rightly guided person? see point (3)
3)He is a rightly guided person because he does not seek his own will, desires, pasions, ideas! instead he seeks the will of God! Jesus seeks the will of God.
4) he was sent down by God, and not by his own accord, not by his own choice, but as a girft to human kind so that they too may be rightly guided like Isa (jesus) peace be upon him.

Now, you may say, but yes thats all lovely, but it doesnt change the fact that he reffered to god as his father!

well then, i say to you, have you never refered to god as the father in heaven. i remeber back at secondary school i used to sing a hym which went, 'oh father hallow be thy name....' we were reffering to god. never did i insinuate that i was gods beggoten son!

even more so, back in the days of Jesus (peace be upon him) rightly guided people called god their father, why? because it is a sign of Love to god, a way of associating with God.

Any ways, that verse i put in red is proof of a few very important things, and they are;

- Jesus was in total submission to God.
why? well he seeked not his own will, but the will of God.
why is this important? well it is quite interesting to note that Muslims who follow the teachings of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) are taught that islam is a religion where one attains peace, by submitting to Allah, i.e. total submission to god. Muslims are taught to seek not their own will, desires, passions, but to seek the will of Allah.

- Another important point is that, this verse shows that Jesus is Powerless without God. Infact he can do nothing on his own. just like the rest of us humans, as we too cannot do anything without the grace and help and will of God.

I really hope i helped in any way possible. My knowledge is next to nothing, i feed of others knowledge and then reflect, that is all. but i hope my reflection gives you time to reflect.

If i could ask you one favour, that would be to read any religious text in the context and with adiquate knowledge of the lanuguage use at the time of its production.

Peace to all, and i hope we can be friends.

Jamal

 

[Jamal_a_Man]

I forgot to tell you what i think of Isa (jesus) peace be upon him.

1) he is one of the Most mightiest Messengers of God
2) a Pure hearted and a pure actioned man
3) he was sent to the Jews, to set them back onto the stright path, a righteous path.
4) his message was to believe in one god, and to associate non with him.
5) Jesus (peace be upon him) is the messiah.
6) he was also sent to give glad tidings of a messenger (the comforter) who would come after him and who would glorify his name, and bring many solutions to our problems.

the 6th point is very important. Read the following passage, Jesus (peace be upon him) speaks and says:

John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

- what does this passage mean? basically, Jesus is saying that it is better for YOU, or US, (or to those he was speaking to at the time, Jews) that he leaves. why? because then he can go and he can send the comforter.
who or what is a comforter? comforter n. One that comforts: the nurse as comforter of the sick. it is interesting that it refers to a nurse as she helps the sick.
however, what it refers to is a thing, or an individual that will be sent to human kind when Jesus (peace be upon him) goes back, that will help heal the sick. not literally, but in terms of faith.

He also adds that the comforter cannot come unless he goes.


john 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

- regarding the comforter. Jesus peace be upon him talks about what the comforter will do. now this verse has alot to dissect in it.

firstly - what does it mean by spirit? does it mean a ghost? a spook? the holy ghost? no. in those days if an individual was referred to as a true spirit then he was considered on who was rightly guided. Jesus was a true spirit. Why because he was a rightly guided individual. but when Jesus (peace be upon him) talks about another spirit of truth, he cannot be talking about himself. so who is it? .....

Secondly - this verse is like no other. there are 6 HE's. Jesus specifically referrs to a man, a man, a man, a man, a man and a man. along with the fact that he is talking about a true spirit it is quite clear that jesus (peace be upon him) is talking about a man who will be rightly guided.

Thirdly - Jesus (peace be upon him) goes into telling us how this righlty guided man will help us and how he will gain the capacity to help us. Well, when HE comes, HE will guide us to the truth! (what truth? isnt the truth already here? evidently not! the jews were not ready for the truth, they did not have the capacity to understand jesus's message) HE will not speak of HIMself! (just liek jesus, he will seek the will of God and is one who is totally submitted to God) BUT what ever HE shall HEAR, HE shall Speak. (very important line! who in the history of this world has claimed that whatever he hears, he speaks? Who claimed that the angel Gabriel came with word from God so that he may listen to it and Relay it to us? HEAR then SPEAK, just think) And HE will show you things to come.

John 16:14 - He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Jesus (peace be upon him) says that this Comforter will glorify him! and that he will recieve of mine! and show it to us!

ok, so other than christianity, which other major religion and proabaly only religion, makes it an artical of faith to believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) which religion has a religious book, which has an ENTIRE chapter dedicated to the Mother of Jesus, Mary and Glorifies Her! not even the bible has an entire chapter dedicated to Mary. i am not critisising at all, honestly, i am only trying to connect the dots.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) has glorified Jesus, by telling us how greater messenger Jesus (peace be upon him) was, that jesus (peace be upon him) is not only a messenger but also the messiah! i.e. telling us of things to come.

Some christians believe that this comforter is the holy ghost. is the holy ghost a he? yes this is a valid question, because in the verse there are 6 masculin He's used and also one masculin Himself. this verse is obviously talking about a he, and a He that is rightly guided.
Any ways, if for a moment we believe that this comforter is the holy ghost and not Muhammad (peace be upon him) then we must ask ourselves, what has the holy ghost brought to us that is new? what solutions has the holy ghost brought about for homosexuality, rape, chronic alcoholism, surplus women and adultery etc. Any ways, i can ramble on for ages. but i hope i helped, and if i have misunderstood these verses, please do not hesitate to let me know, as i am open to rethinking.

again, thankyou for reading!

Jamal

 

[lynx3007]

Dear Jamal,

I am very sorry for asking about your religion. I have no ill intention as to whatever. I just want to express myself that just like you, believes that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God but a man in nature like us but different in many ways as for the purpose he was made by God. He was also given many qualities that made him unique above all men.

Of course I my self do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Although I am Christian and believes that the words written in he bible are enough for us to base our beliefs. In the new testament of the bible, in the book of John, chapter 17, Jesus prayed to God. Take note that he lifted his eyes to heaven and said "FATHER". And in verse 3 he said that THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL... what is this thing that if we would know would give us life eternal??? Jesus said THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus whom You have sent. Therefore we believe that by knowing who the true God really is is the way to gain eternal life. Jesus never said he was God. Remember what he did before he prayed, HE LIFTED HIS EYES TO HEAVEN AND SAID "FATHER". Thus the one he was referring to as the only true God is the FATHER whom he lifted his eyes to. He never said said in his prayer "THAT THEY MAY KNOW ME/US, THE ONLY TRUE GOD".

The Holy Ghost as we could read in John 14:26 will be sent by the Father in Jesus's name to comfort us, teach us all things, and make us remember the things said by Jesus. It also helps us when we are praying to God as told in Romans 8:26-27.

I think we share the same opinion to Jesus real nature. For i believe that Jesus is:

1. The Son of God (Mat 3:37)
2. The Christ whom God made (Acts 2:36)
3. The Saviour made by God (Acts 5:31)
4. The Mediator between God and man (1Tim 2:5)
5. The Head of his church (Eph 1:22)
6. Given by God the name above all names (Phi 2:9)
7. The only man who never sinned (1Pet 2:22)

I hope i have gave you an insight on my belief and again sorry. I hope we could discuss further matters regarding to this. Thank you.

LyNx

 

[lynx3007]

Also i would like to add my idea about the Holy Spirit. In reference to the bible, the Holy Spirit is sent down from heaven (1Pet 1:12). And who will send the Holy Spirit? ... The answer could be read in John 14:26 which is God who will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus's name.

I think all so-called Christians believe that Jesus is God when in fact (according to Jesus and his Apostles), he was a man made by God.