Did Jesus say he was God???

[Muffled]

Oh...fooie...!.... What are you rambling about man..!!

What you are paraphrasing above means nothing more than "one in purpose".....

John 17:22-23
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]22 "I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are--[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]23 I in them and you in me, all being perfected into one. Then the world will know that you sent me and will understand that you love them as much as you love me.[/FONT]

One in purpose...tis all....

From experience I know that you don't really care what the truth is so it does not surprise me that you avoid it like the plague. As usual you make your statements without proving your point. I have to conclude that your purpose is not to convince me that what you say is true but rather to proliferate an unsubstantiated falsehood in hopes that it will fool someone unwise enough to not require proof.

 

[lynx3007]

The divinity of Christ was voted on by the Council of Nicea around 400 A.D. and that has been proven. Enough said?

Are you hearing yourself??? VOTED??? by what right they would vote the divinity of Christ? It's just like someone would say Hey let's make a vote here on the forum as wether Jesus was God or not and the minority will follow what the results are even if it is the truth or not. I'm saying that when did man have the right to make his fellow man a God???

You should have studied more on the history of your doctrine... Please read my previous posting.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

From experience I know that you don't really care what the truth is so it does not surprise me that you avoid it like the plague.

And what truth it that?...Catholic truth, muslim truth, Jewish truth....or any one of their varying sects truth....? Studying your scripture, the biblical Yeshua does not present himself as God nor is it something he taught his followers.....

As usual you make your statements without proving your point.

Right back at ya........We're all using the bible to prove the bible... At best all any of us can do is simply present their opinion. The title of the thread is a question and here we are almost 1600 comments later and no definitive answer to the question. There will never be one as long as believers be he was, believers believe he wasn't...as well as non-believers saying he never claimed he was.....

I have to conclude that your purpose is not to convince me that what you say is true but rather to proliferate an unsubstantiated falsehood in hopes that it will fool someone unwise enough to not require proof.

You are a true believer deep rooted in what you believe. I could never "convince" you. I could, at best, help you see things a different way but that's all. And I do believe proselytizing is against forum rules so I'm not on some sort of a potential atheist candidate hunt. No one entering this thread will be fooled by you nor me so why bother...?...Again, the thread question was asked and no evidence is to be found in the four gospels of Yeshua claiming either implicitly or explicitly he was God. Nor do we find such a position taken when reading the book of Revelation. We find the exact opposite to what you assert.

No one on this forum or in this thread is mistaking who or what I am. I'm an atheist.....Some label me a skeptic or for some reason even a mythacist.....but what is interesting is....none of that really matters. I don't have to be a believer in order to critique what your scriptures say. Case in point...Richard Carrier. He's an atheist but has made it his field of study to be familiar with Yeshua and Christianity.

 

[lynx3007]

And what truth it that?...Catholic truth, muslim truth, Jewish truth....or any one of their varying sects truth....? Studying your scripture, the biblical Yeshua does not present himself as God nor is it something he taught his followers.....

No one on this forum or in this thread is mistaking who or what I am. I'm an atheist.....Some label me a skeptic or for some reason even a mythacist.....but what is interesting is....none of that really matters. I don't have to be a believer in order to critique what your scriptures say. Case in point...Richard Carrier. He's an atheist but has made it his field of study to be familiar with Yeshua and Christianity.

The first problem you have is your lack of God. Without God there would be no faith. Without faith how can you even believe something as "TRUTH"? What then is the truth for someone who calls himself an atheist?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The first problem you have is your lack of God. Without God there would be no faith. Without faith how can you even believe something as "TRUTH"? What then is the truth for someone who calls himself an atheist?

This is completely incorrect. A lack of faith does not preclude me from understanding what is written in the scripture. The thread question has nothing to do with (If I "believe" Yeshua is God)...rather....did he say he was. The best and possibly the ONLY place to look for such a statement, whether you are a believer or a non-believer, is the Bible....

Jews have faith and yet they are at odds with Christians as to whether Yeshua meets the requirements to be the Messiah.

Muslims have faith and yet they are at odds with those who say Yeshua is the begotten son of God.

Christians have faith and yet they are odds with fellow Christians over the supposed deity of Christ.

So you guys have way more faith than I do and still can't reach a consensus. So faith is not a prerequisite for discerning what is "truth" when it comes to those scriptures. There are plenty of non-believers who are accomplished scholars who have immersed themselves in the study of ancient text and the life of the biblical Yeshua.

 

[Greatest I am]

Theres the statement. Now, where's the proof?

There is no proof of God to begin with but in terms of biblical proof, try Sodom and Noah's flood.
Two good examples of the killing of innocent people.

Need I say more?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

GREATEST I AM-

The seemingly talking snake according to Revelation (12:9,12) is the original 'snake in the grass' back in Eden called Devil and Satan which brings 'woe' to earth.

If that old snake was good for mankind then why is there no peace on earth when the majority of people want peace on earth?

Is knowledge the same as morals? By disobedience they had a particular knowledge of self-determination to choose for themselves what was right or wrong in their eyes .

How can you choose what is right or wrong or good or evil, without the knowledge of right and wrong or good and evil?

You are putting the cart before the horse.

Regards
DL

 

[elisheba]

GREATEST I AM-

The seemingly talking snake according to Revelation (12:9,12) is the original 'snake in the grass' back in Eden called Devil and Satan which brings 'woe' to earth.

If that old snake was good for mankind then why is there no peace on earth when the majority of people want peace on earth?

Is knowledge the same as morals? By disobedience they had a particular knowledge of self-determination to choose for themselves what was right or wrong in their eyes rather then following God's guidelines as to what was in mankind's best interest.

Isn't there both good moral sense and bad moral sense?
Man, unlike animals, was created with a conscience. Unless damaged the conscience can be a good guide especially if it is trained in Bible morality.

By reaching out Eve ate us out of a house and home that we should be enjoying in a paradise earth . The garden was to be expanded until it's blooms covered the whole earth for all to enjoy forever and ever.

The majority of people live in fear and want constant pleasure to distract themselves.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The majority of people live in fear and want constant pleasure to distract themselves.

That comment ^ may very well sum things up. Many college students I have heard say, "As long as it's fun"....

One final result of these critical times of these last days of badness on earth (2nd Tim 3:1-5,13) is that men would be lovers of pleasure (fun) rather then God.

Paul defines the attitudes and actions of people there in 2nd Timothy by describing a selfish distorted form of love that is the opposite of the Christ-like love of 1st Corinthians (13:4-6).

This final fruitage or end result is the failure of people not responding to what Jesus taught such as the Golden Rule.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The divinity of Christ was voted on by the Council of Nicea around 400 A.D. and that has been proven. Enough said?

Yes, the divinity of Christ was voted on by the Council, and how does that compare with Revelation (3:14b) where Jesus says he is the beginning of the creation by God? Also, Colossians (1:15,16) where Paul writes Jesus is the 'firstborn' of every creature and the 'image' of the invisible God. Through Jesus all things came into existence.(Eph 3:9).

Psalm (90:2) informs that God had No start or beginning but is from everlasting.
John (1:1) says Jesus had a beginning or start. No where does it say Jesus is before the beginning or start as God was before the beginning or start.

Jesus, as wisdom personified at Proverbs (8:22-31), is the one speaking there and is said to be created. (Proverbs 30:4)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How can you choose what is right or wrong or good or evil, without the knowledge of right and wrong or good and evil?

You are putting the cart before the horse.

Regards
DL

A&E had knowledge. God had previously already told them it was wrong to eat his fruit. See Gen 2:17. By saying they were 'not' to do something was in effect God's No Trespassing sign. Up to that time God was guiding or directing them as to what good for them or not. By Adam breaking away from God and becoming independent from God and listening to Satan then Adam was setting up people rule over God rule as the best way of living. Since Adam was gifted by God with free will to choose then God honored Adam's choice to be free or independent of His judgment on matters. Men were now free to choose for themselves what they deemed as right or wrong. Men could now determine for themselves what was good or bad for mankind. Genesis (3:1-5) also shows Satan challenged God's right to regulate what is best for us. (Job 2:4)

The final result of man rule (influenced by Satan 2Cor 4:4) is what we see surrounding us in the world today. (2Tim3:1-5,13). Mankind is not capable of bringing peace on earth. It will only be through divine intervention (Isaiah 11:4; Rev 19:11,15) that Jesus will accomplish peace on earth and peace toward men of goodwill.- Rev 7:9,10,14.

 

[Greatest I am]

The majority of people live in fear and want constant pleasure to distract themselves.

Do a survey on this and you will see how wrong you are.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

"Is knowledge the same as morals? By disobedience they had a particular knowledge of self-determination to choose for themselves what was right or wrong in their eyes rather then following God's guidelines as to what was in mankind's best interest."

Anyone fool enough to think that man is complete without a moral sense must be living without one.
No wonder then that they are fools.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

That comment ^ may very well sum things up. Many college students I have heard say, "As long as it's fun"....

One final result of these critical times of these last days of badness on earth (2nd Tim 3:1-5,13) is that men would be lovers of pleasure (fun) rather then God.

Paul defines the attitudes and actions of people there in 2nd Timothy by describing a selfish distorted form of love that is the opposite of the Christ-like love of 1st Corinthians (13:4-6).

This final fruitage or end result is the failure of people not responding to what Jesus taught such as the Golden Rule.

If that was that good a rule then you would think that Jesus would not have been part of Noah's genocidal flood.

Strange that in the OT He kills sinners left and right then suddenly, in the N T He would not even stone a prostitute.

I guess He learned that to use genocide against man was evil.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

A&E had knowledge. God had previously already told them it was wrong to eat his fruit. See Gen 2:17. By saying they were 'not' to do something was in effect God's No Trespassing sign. Up to that time God was guiding or directing them as to what good for them or not. By Adam breaking away from God and becoming independent from God and listening to Satan then Adam was setting up people rule over God rule as the best way of living. Since Adam was gifted by God with free will to choose then God honored Adam's choice to be free or independent of His judgment on matters. Men were now free to choose for themselves what they deemed as right or wrong. Men could now determine for themselves what was good or bad for mankind. Genesis (3:1-5) also shows Satan challenged God's right to regulate what is best for us. (Job 2:4)

The final result of man rule (influenced by Satan 2Cor 4:4) is what we see surrounding us in the world today. (2Tim3:1-5,13). Mankind is not capable of bringing peace on earth. It will only be through divine intervention (Isaiah 11:4; Rev 19:11,15) that Jesus will accomplish peace on earth and peace toward men of goodwill.- Rev 7:9,10,14.

Yep. Divine intervention. You mean that He will return again to use genocide against man.

You pray for that???

If so, you are a traitor to humanity.

Regards
DL

 

[Ganymede]

I will let the fact that this thread has gone on for ... 160 pages?!!!! speak for itself. No-one of us knows. Because not one of us are messengers or prophets of God. There is a principle in the Baha'i Faith that puts all of this to rest. It is called: "Individual investigation of truth". What this means (to most Baha'is that I've known, and I've known quite a few) is that we no longer need priests or other "divines" to interpret the word of God for us. We need not argue these points among one another (and in fact it is detrimental to harmony and peace in the world when we do), but the interpretations can be shared and discussed, but no human can say that they have the quintessential truth. It is a matter between each of us, and God himself. My personal opinion is that you folks are wasting precious time here, arguing about this. Is there a diversity council on this site? The Baha'is would like to unite the peoples of the earth, and showing respect for another persons opinion is part of that process for us. If you want to believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, by all means, believe that. Just don't expect everyone else to believe the same as you, and we might all just get along.

 

[elisheba]

Do a survey on this and you will see how wrong you are.

Regards
DL

People will not answer honestly due to ego

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"Is knowledge the same as morals? By disobedience they had a particular knowledge of self-determination to choose for themselves what was right or wrong in their eyes rather then following God's guidelines as to what was in mankind's best interest."

Anyone fool enough to think that man is complete without a moral sense must be living without one.
No wonder then that they are fools.

Regards
DL

Doesn't man's moral compass involve his conscience?
Because of conscience men do by nature the things of the law.
Conscience can excuse or accuse. (Romans 2:14,15)
A damaged or hardened conscience is not a good moral guide.
So Jimminy Cricket's advice to let one's conscience be one's guide would not work too well if one had the conscience of a serial killer, but one whose conscience is influenced by Jesus Sermon on the Mount would work well.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If that was that good a rule then you would think that Jesus would not have been part of Noah's genocidal flood.

Strange that in the OT He kills sinners left and right then suddenly, in the N T He would not even stone a prostitute.

I guess He learned that to use genocide against man was evil.

Regards
DL

Were the violent wicked people of Noah's day following the Golden Rule?
Rather their violence and wickedness were a threat to all.

The wicked will again come to destruction. (Psalm 92:7; 37:38; Prov 2:21,22)
This time by the words from Jesus mouth. (Isaiah 11:4; Revelation 19:11,15)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yep. Divine intervention. You mean that He will return again to use genocide against man.

You pray for that???

If so, you are a traitor to humanity.

Regards
DL

It is Not God's desire that any are destroyed. (2Peter 3:9). That is why Jesus said the good news of God's kingdom would be proclaimed first before the end of all badness will come- (Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20). Jesus is the crowned king of God's kingdom and Jesus is the one that will usher in peace on earth toward men of goodwill.

Ezekiel (3:18-21) wrote to even warn the righteous not to become wicked.

Just as Noah warned the people of his day (2Peter 2:5) before the Flood came so too today people are being informed that Jesus will take action against any that would deliberately want to do violence or anything wicked to another.